Curved saddle - which part to level?
#26
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Even without a straight edge
or spirit level, you can see the nose up tilt of this pretty flat saddle. And here you can see the modest saddle to bar drop.
At 62 I don't need to play Cat 2 boy racer anymore, and this works for me. OMMV. Still, I didn't go much out of my way to achieve this. If you halfway work with a bike you can get something that feels pretty good.
I technically should be on a 56cm frame as I am 5'10". This is a 58cm. It was the last of it's model in the store and no more will ever be made. $1000 bike for $600 take it or leave it, Sir. I took it.
The OEM stem is 100mm. I have an 80mm on order. That will make it a skoosh more comfortable but no one rides bikes like this expecting the same comfort as on a cruiser, do they?
or spirit level, you can see the nose up tilt of this pretty flat saddle. And here you can see the modest saddle to bar drop.
At 62 I don't need to play Cat 2 boy racer anymore, and this works for me. OMMV. Still, I didn't go much out of my way to achieve this. If you halfway work with a bike you can get something that feels pretty good.
I technically should be on a 56cm frame as I am 5'10". This is a 58cm. It was the last of it's model in the store and no more will ever be made. $1000 bike for $600 take it or leave it, Sir. I took it.
The OEM stem is 100mm. I have an 80mm on order. That will make it a skoosh more comfortable but no one rides bikes like this expecting the same comfort as on a cruiser, do they?
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#28
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Thread Starter
Thank you for all your replies. Here's an update once again.
Finally decided to bring out the indoor trainer and do a basic bike fit following advice from bike fitters on YouTube (Neill Stanbury and James Thomas, in particular).
In the end, I dropped my saddle height by about 1.5 cm. Now it's 66.5 cm from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the center of the saddle. Saddle to bar drop is just 4.5 cm, which seems normal for small guys. I stuck with the 100 mm stem that I had since I really didn't feel stretched out on it (my shoulders were still relaxed and there's a slight bend on my elbows when on the hoods). As for saddle fore-aft, this was a bit tricky but I found that somewhere along the center of the rails works best for me. Oh, and I tipped the saddle slightly nose up (like in the original post) because when I make the nose level, whatever I do, I find myself slipping. I don't have any bum pain and the nose doesn't hit my private parts even when on the drops. With this setup, I feel much more comfortable and much more motivated to go and ride.
However, I went on an 85 km ride today and averaged 30 km/h and found towards the middle/near the end of the ride, my lower back would again hurt, and I would spend more time on the tops. In addition, near the very end, I would feel a slight pain in my neck. Both of these weren't present at the start of the ride and in other shorter, more relaxed rides (I was pretty much gassing it today). I've read online that it isn't really a bike fit problem and more to do with overall fatigue and a weak core. What do you guys think? I'll start doing planks and other exercises for this but I'm still concerned that something with my current setup is off.
Finally decided to bring out the indoor trainer and do a basic bike fit following advice from bike fitters on YouTube (Neill Stanbury and James Thomas, in particular).
In the end, I dropped my saddle height by about 1.5 cm. Now it's 66.5 cm from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the center of the saddle. Saddle to bar drop is just 4.5 cm, which seems normal for small guys. I stuck with the 100 mm stem that I had since I really didn't feel stretched out on it (my shoulders were still relaxed and there's a slight bend on my elbows when on the hoods). As for saddle fore-aft, this was a bit tricky but I found that somewhere along the center of the rails works best for me. Oh, and I tipped the saddle slightly nose up (like in the original post) because when I make the nose level, whatever I do, I find myself slipping. I don't have any bum pain and the nose doesn't hit my private parts even when on the drops. With this setup, I feel much more comfortable and much more motivated to go and ride.
However, I went on an 85 km ride today and averaged 30 km/h and found towards the middle/near the end of the ride, my lower back would again hurt, and I would spend more time on the tops. In addition, near the very end, I would feel a slight pain in my neck. Both of these weren't present at the start of the ride and in other shorter, more relaxed rides (I was pretty much gassing it today). I've read online that it isn't really a bike fit problem and more to do with overall fatigue and a weak core. What do you guys think? I'll start doing planks and other exercises for this but I'm still concerned that something with my current setup is off.
#29
Scrubby duff
Thank you for all your replies. Here's an update once again.
Finally decided to bring out the indoor trainer and do a basic bike fit following advice from bike fitters on YouTube (Neill Stanbury and James Thomas, in particular).
In the end, I dropped my saddle height by about 1.5 cm. Now it's 66.5 cm from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the center of the saddle. Saddle to bar drop is just 4.5 cm, which seems normal for small guys. I stuck with the 100 mm stem that I had since I really didn't feel stretched out on it (my shoulders were still relaxed and there's a slight bend on my elbows when on the hoods). As for saddle fore-aft, this was a bit tricky but I found that somewhere along the center of the rails works best for me. Oh, and I tipped the saddle slightly nose up (like in the original post) because when I make the nose level, whatever I do, I find myself slipping. I don't have any bum pain and the nose doesn't hit my private parts even when on the drops. With this setup, I feel much more comfortable and much more motivated to go and ride.
However, I went on an 85 km ride today and averaged 30 km/h and found towards the middle/near the end of the ride, my lower back would again hurt, and I would spend more time on the tops. In addition, near the very end, I would feel a slight pain in my neck. Both of these weren't present at the start of the ride and in other shorter, more relaxed rides (I was pretty much gassing it today). I've read online that it isn't really a bike fit problem and more to do with overall fatigue and a weak core. What do you guys think? I'll start doing planks and other exercises for this but I'm still concerned that something with my current setup is off.
Finally decided to bring out the indoor trainer and do a basic bike fit following advice from bike fitters on YouTube (Neill Stanbury and James Thomas, in particular).
In the end, I dropped my saddle height by about 1.5 cm. Now it's 66.5 cm from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the center of the saddle. Saddle to bar drop is just 4.5 cm, which seems normal for small guys. I stuck with the 100 mm stem that I had since I really didn't feel stretched out on it (my shoulders were still relaxed and there's a slight bend on my elbows when on the hoods). As for saddle fore-aft, this was a bit tricky but I found that somewhere along the center of the rails works best for me. Oh, and I tipped the saddle slightly nose up (like in the original post) because when I make the nose level, whatever I do, I find myself slipping. I don't have any bum pain and the nose doesn't hit my private parts even when on the drops. With this setup, I feel much more comfortable and much more motivated to go and ride.
However, I went on an 85 km ride today and averaged 30 km/h and found towards the middle/near the end of the ride, my lower back would again hurt, and I would spend more time on the tops. In addition, near the very end, I would feel a slight pain in my neck. Both of these weren't present at the start of the ride and in other shorter, more relaxed rides (I was pretty much gassing it today). I've read online that it isn't really a bike fit problem and more to do with overall fatigue and a weak core. What do you guys think? I'll start doing planks and other exercises for this but I'm still concerned that something with my current setup is off.
* the reason being, if it isnt, then your actual riding experience will be different.
Last edited by jma1st3r; 03-29-21 at 03:23 PM.
#30
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Sounds good to me. Do some more 85 km rides soon. At least 3 per month if not more.
I'd only want to know if you are keeping your pelvis too upright on the saddle and then bending your lower back more to get your riding position on the bike. If so, that might contribute to your lower back hurting toward the rides end.
Rotating your pelvis forward to straighten your back might run into issues with that saddle nose up. Lowering that nose on the saddle might need you to shorten the stem or get bars with a shorter reach in them or moving the saddle a cm or so forward in the seat post. Or pedaling with more power output for the entire ride..... don't we all wish we could do that!
But there is that being on a trainer thing. I don't do trainers, so I've no idea how that translates to real road cycling. I'd be sure some things don't work the same for fit.
I'd only want to know if you are keeping your pelvis too upright on the saddle and then bending your lower back more to get your riding position on the bike. If so, that might contribute to your lower back hurting toward the rides end.
Rotating your pelvis forward to straighten your back might run into issues with that saddle nose up. Lowering that nose on the saddle might need you to shorten the stem or get bars with a shorter reach in them or moving the saddle a cm or so forward in the seat post. Or pedaling with more power output for the entire ride..... don't we all wish we could do that!
But there is that being on a trainer thing. I don't do trainers, so I've no idea how that translates to real road cycling. I'd be sure some things don't work the same for fit.
#31
Senior Member
Broken record here stuck on the same old groove. This fascination with "level". I've been riding 50 years and started racing 45 years ago. I've never leveled a seat. I adjust them until they fit right. For me, that is the most critical adjustment on the entire bike. I have 2-bolt seatposts on almost all my bikes so I can get that last little bit to perfect while on the road.
I've occasionally placed a level on the seat just for fun but would never use it to set a seat up unless I happened to remember "oh yeah, this seat happened to be dead level the front half when I laid the level on it two years ago". (Not very likely!)
Level seats are like 10D shoes. They might be "right" but they don't work for everybody! (My feet have been measured at 10D many times. Many of my shoes aren't. My feet rule here like my butt does on the bike.) Likewise, the saying when I raced was that God and Eddy Merckx rode 120 stems. I do on one bike (designed around a -17 120 so stems wouldn't be hard to find).
I've occasionally placed a level on the seat just for fun but would never use it to set a seat up unless I happened to remember "oh yeah, this seat happened to be dead level the front half when I laid the level on it two years ago". (Not very likely!)
Level seats are like 10D shoes. They might be "right" but they don't work for everybody! (My feet have been measured at 10D many times. Many of my shoes aren't. My feet rule here like my butt does on the bike.) Likewise, the saying when I raced was that God and Eddy Merckx rode 120 stems. I do on one bike (designed around a -17 120 so stems wouldn't be hard to find).
If I ever tear a bike down or remove the saddle for any reason, I take a scrap stick of wood and hold it vertically against the top tube, and make a mark for the saddle nose. If the stick is long enough, do the same thing for a measurement from stem to saddle nose. This way you can quickly get the saddle back to a position that likely took some time and effort to arrive at in the first instance.
#32
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This makes sense to me. The only way to have it right is to ride and adjust, incrementally, until you find the sweet spot. I would define that as the nose low enough that you don't get numbness, but high enough that you don't slide forward, which is fatiguing on the arms and shoulders. The angle will vary depending on the type of saddle (this should be obvious).
If I ever tear a bike down or remove the saddle for any reason, I take a scrap stick of wood and hold it vertically against the top tube, and make a mark for the saddle nose. If the stick is long enough, do the same thing for a measurement from stem to saddle nose. This way you can quickly get the saddle back to a position that likely took some time and effort to arrive at in the first instance.
If I ever tear a bike down or remove the saddle for any reason, I take a scrap stick of wood and hold it vertically against the top tube, and make a mark for the saddle nose. If the stick is long enough, do the same thing for a measurement from stem to saddle nose. This way you can quickly get the saddle back to a position that likely took some time and effort to arrive at in the first instance.
#33
Senior Member
So you're recommending that someone start at 0 degrees for a saddle that no one rides at 0 degrees. That's just awesome advice!!! NOT. You might as well tell her to start at any random angle and adjust from there.
Sarcasm and jokes aside... while starting at 0 degrees won't do any harm, it's not a logical starting point for a curved saddle. Does common sense not have any role in your linear process? <-- That's a serious question.
Sarcasm and jokes aside... while starting at 0 degrees won't do any harm, it's not a logical starting point for a curved saddle. Does common sense not have any role in your linear process? <-- That's a serious question.
As to saying no one uses 0 degrees in curved saddles, Selle SMP which is the manufacturer of curved saddles actually recommends a starting point of 0 degrees and going nose up or nose down from there. Some end up with nose up and some end up with nose down.
In the same vein, when setting saddle fore aft position it's best to start at the middle of the rails and go from there. Though knowing whether a saddle needs to come forward or go backward is not nearly as intuitive as saddle tilt angle. Though that's partly because the sensations queing one for longitudal saddle positioning are affected by saddle tilt as well. Really it probably takes multiple tries of various fore aft positionings and tilt adjustments to get it right.
But in the end it depends on the person. Some people don't care and aren't affected by a fit that's not optimal. An acquaintance of mine did the iron man race with a road bike (without aerobars) that had way too much reach, way too much saddle to bar drop and too high a saddle. He didn't care but that's just how he is. He can ride whatever whenever. He's the same size and same proportions as me and I couldn't ride a mile with his bike.
#34
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Thread Starter
Sounds good to me. Do some more 85 km rides soon. At least 3 per month if not more.
I'd only want to know if you are keeping your pelvis too upright on the saddle and then bending your lower back more to get your riding position on the bike. If so, that might contribute to your lower back hurting toward the rides end.
Rotating your pelvis forward to straighten your back might run into issues with that saddle nose up. Lowering that nose on the saddle might need you to shorten the stem or get bars with a shorter reach in them or moving the saddle a cm or so forward in the seat post. Or pedaling with more power output for the entire ride..... don't we all wish we could do that!
But there is that being on a trainer thing. I don't do trainers, so I've no idea how that translates to real road cycling. I'd be sure some things don't work the same for fit.
I'd only want to know if you are keeping your pelvis too upright on the saddle and then bending your lower back more to get your riding position on the bike. If so, that might contribute to your lower back hurting toward the rides end.
Rotating your pelvis forward to straighten your back might run into issues with that saddle nose up. Lowering that nose on the saddle might need you to shorten the stem or get bars with a shorter reach in them or moving the saddle a cm or so forward in the seat post. Or pedaling with more power output for the entire ride..... don't we all wish we could do that!
But there is that being on a trainer thing. I don't do trainers, so I've no idea how that translates to real road cycling. I'd be sure some things don't work the same for fit.
#35
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There are different reasons why you might shift in the saddle. One is that for the current power you are putting into the cranks that is where your body with it's current position wants to be. So when you increased your power, you upset the balance and the bike fit muses. If for the majority of your riding you are at a power that doesn't do that, then should be no problem.
I use to have more issues with sliding forward on my saddles when I used a more upright position. Since I now ride in a fairly aero position all the time, changes of power output don't seem to affect me as they did before. But a lot of other things have changed for me too. So I can't claim that to be the end all thing.
I use to have more issues with sliding forward on my saddles when I used a more upright position. Since I now ride in a fairly aero position all the time, changes of power output don't seem to affect me as they did before. But a lot of other things have changed for me too. So I can't claim that to be the end all thing.
#36
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The shape of the saddle is irrelevant. It's a common mistake people make, I know I did, trying to guesstimate the 'level' position on the saddle. If you use a piece of board that covers the entire saddle you have the identical reference point every time you adjust your saddle. Start at 0 degrees and go from there.
Your bones and their position need to be stable with no more than light hand pressure on the bars or hoods - this makes for a sustainable riding position. . If your butt position is steady because you are always pushing back with your hands, that's not sustainable.
In case of pain in front of the sitbones, which can happen with or without a saddle cutout or a depression in the middle, the obvious measure is to lower the nose bit by bit until it is no longer painful. But this can also tend to make you slide forward, which isn't good. In this case I don't drop the nose, rather I lower the saddle bit by bit. It doesn't take much to relieve this frontal pressure and it doesn't affect the sitbone pressure. My leg extension is reduced a little bit, but I pedal with flexible ankles, so it usually doesn't matter a lot. If it does I can slide the saddle backwards a small amount to restore the leg extension.
Last edited by Road Fan; 04-06-21 at 08:46 PM.
#37
Scrubby duff
In terms of finding "level" I agree the shape of the saddle is irrelevant, because I think the concept of "level" is irrelevant. What IS important is whether your sit bones will stay at the part of the saddle designed to accommodate them (usually the widest area), and whether the lighter but still significant pressure in front of that is low enough.
Your bones and their position need to be stable with no more than light hand pressure on the bars or hoods - this makes for a sustainable riding position. . If your butt position is steady because you are always pushing back with your hands, that's not sustainable.
In case of pain in front of the sitbones, which can happen with or without a saddle cutout or a depression in the middle, the obvious measure is to lower the nose bit by bit until it is no longer painful. But this can also tend to make you slide forward, which isn't good. In this case I don't drop the nose, rather I lower the saddle bit by bit. It doesn't take much to relieve this frontal pressure and it doesn't affect the sitbone pressure. My leg extension is reduced a little bit, but I pedal with flexible ankles, so it usually doesn't matter a lot. If it does I can slide the saddle backwards a small amount to restore the leg extension.
This all assumes you have
Your bones and their position need to be stable with no more than light hand pressure on the bars or hoods - this makes for a sustainable riding position. . If your butt position is steady because you are always pushing back with your hands, that's not sustainable.
In case of pain in front of the sitbones, which can happen with or without a saddle cutout or a depression in the middle, the obvious measure is to lower the nose bit by bit until it is no longer painful. But this can also tend to make you slide forward, which isn't good. In this case I don't drop the nose, rather I lower the saddle bit by bit. It doesn't take much to relieve this frontal pressure and it doesn't affect the sitbone pressure. My leg extension is reduced a little bit, but I pedal with flexible ankles, so it usually doesn't matter a lot. If it does I can slide the saddle backwards a small amount to restore the leg extension.
This all assumes you have
Ergo saddles, has "pre broken in" shape. If you look at Selle Italia X2 and Brooks Leather saddles. Well worn saddle are all worn with rider's fanny bone inprint on them. Ergo Saddle mimic that function, but provide more rigid support.
#38
don't try this at home.
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It took a couple of weeks to get used to my Fizik curved saddle. Terrible at first, then "okay", then "perfect" after a month. It's slightly nose up, so that the rear portion where I sit is fairly level.
Sliding forward:
This bike fitter wants to get the saddle correct, then change the stem if necessary. Sliding the saddle forward to fix reach problems isn't the way to go.
See the balance test starting at the 4 minute mark. This was useful for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhWVZq2qUc
~~~~
Okay on short or medium rides, but back pain on longer rides? Maybe just more miles will help.
Sliding forward:
This bike fitter wants to get the saddle correct, then change the stem if necessary. Sliding the saddle forward to fix reach problems isn't the way to go.
See the balance test starting at the 4 minute mark. This was useful for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhWVZq2qUc
~~~~
Okay on short or medium rides, but back pain on longer rides? Maybe just more miles will help.
#39
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#40
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I know known bike fitter say saddle issue is not due to saddle but rather the interaction with saddle. But shape is important *in the fine tuning department.
Ergo saddles, has "pre broken in" shape. If you look at Selle Italia X2 and Brooks Leather saddles. Well worn saddle are all worn with rider's fanny bone inprint on them. Ergo Saddle mimic that function, but provide more rigid support.
Ergo saddles, has "pre broken in" shape. If you look at Selle Italia X2 and Brooks Leather saddles. Well worn saddle are all worn with rider's fanny bone inprint on them. Ergo Saddle mimic that function, but provide more rigid support.
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#41
Scrubby duff
I'm not saying shape is irrelevant to comfort, I'm saying levelness is irrelevant to comfort. We each need to find a way to maximize comfort for any saddle we buy (or receive as a birthday present), or be prepared to let it rot on the shelf or dispose of it. I'm saying to find comfort, you need to set the saddle up for comfort, not for "levelness." So the whole discussion about "how to find levelness" is irrelevant, because the goal is comfort, not levelness. At least for me, setting a saddle to "level" does not automatically deliver comfort. Finding comfort or maximizing it can be a lengthy iterative adventure, or you could strike it rich on the first padal stroke. Maybe when it's "right" it will be level, or maybe it won't.
I mean if there is a saddle angle finder i would use that. I only use level to tell me where it was at, should there be a need to zero the position and start over. Its the zero position to me.
And i did end up tilting the nose up a tad, made a whole world of difference on comfort.
#42
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Well, how do you know the changes you made? By eye? For sure? Angle finder?
I mean if there is a saddle angle finder i would use that. I only use level to tell me where it was at, should there be a need to zero the position and start over. Its the zero position to me.
And i did end up tilting the nose up a tad, made a whole world of difference on comfort.
I mean if there is a saddle angle finder i would use that. I only use level to tell me where it was at, should there be a need to zero the position and start over. Its the zero position to me.
And i did end up tilting the nose up a tad, made a whole world of difference on comfort.
Angle is important for making progress toward a good solution. But its just the angle. It's not levelness. Sometimes I change tilt by a known amount. Sometimes I just turn the Allen wrench by one flat or half a flat. I adjust it in small increments. But I don't care about levelness, therefore the effect of shape on levelness or how its measured, is irrelevant.
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Just looking at that photo makes all the breakfast stuff hurt. Try increasing the stem angle a few degrees. It'll require a different stem if you cannot flip your current one. If you end up buying a new stem to increase the angle, it might be worthwhile to grad one that decreases the length a little bit too.
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