Litespeed failure
#26
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When I worked for Ti Cycles (mid '90s), we did repairs that were a lot more difficult than that. On Litespeeds too. I'm pretty sure Dave Levy (proprietor) still does Ti frame repairs. He was very good in the '90s and has probably only gotten better. Not cheap though.
Ti Cycles is near Portland OR, but if you're shipping the frame somewhere to get it repaired, it doesn't matter much how many miles away.
I have heard Bilenky is also very good, so maybe choose based on estimated cost and/or lead time.
Ti Cycles is near Portland OR, but if you're shipping the frame somewhere to get it repaired, it doesn't matter much how many miles away.
I have heard Bilenky is also very good, so maybe choose based on estimated cost and/or lead time.
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frame was purchased brand new from Alan's bicycles in Willmingon Delaware in mid to late 90's. He does not have receipt and neighter do we of course. going to go look at frame again to see what you are looking at. yeah, the frame is old but I have a 84 Colnago that hasn't cracked and I know it was crashed hard more than once!
When I worked for Ti Cycles (mid '90s), we did repairs that were a lot more difficult than that. On Litespeeds too. I'm pretty sure Dave Levy (proprietor) still does Ti frame repairs. He was very good in the '90s and has probably only gotten better. Not cheap though.
Ti Cycles is near Portland OR, but if you're shipping the frame somewhere to get it repaired, it doesn't matter much how many miles away.
I have heard Bilenky is also very good, so maybe choose based on estimated cost and/or lead time.
Ti Cycles is near Portland OR, but if you're shipping the frame somewhere to get it repaired, it doesn't matter much how many miles away.
I have heard Bilenky is also very good, so maybe choose based on estimated cost and/or lead time.
He's a one man show and beholden to no one but the customer and himself.
Jack at Franklin would be the only other I would trust to do this.
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that’s a bummer
the frame was probably defective
I don’t believe headset installation or related was the cause - doubt corrosion led to the failure (?) - and no sign of damage from crash etc
maybe a / the mitre of the down tube (at the head tube or bottom bracket shell) was slightly off and the down tube was subject to significant amount of stress (?)
just a wild guess … frame builder could probably provide some better / educated guesses … theories
Last edited by t2p; 12-27-23 at 05:28 PM.
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I can't help but think that using the word "defective" to describe a weld that finally broke after about 25 years of use might not be the correct way to look at the situation. A lifetime warranty is great, but virtually no welds (or tubing or any other material, for that matter) are completely perfect and 100% indestructible. An old weld finally gave out due to some underlying problem, but it looks like it was a perfectly good weld at the start. That goes without saying that the tube itself ended up cracking a lot more than the welded joint!
-Gregory
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frame was purchased brand new from Alan's bicycles in Willmingon Delaware in mid to late 90's. He does not have receipt and neighter do we of course. going to go look at frame again to see what you are looking at. yeah, the frame is old but I have a 84 Colnago that hasn't cracked and I know it was crashed hard more than once!
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+1 To it's got to be car carrier wiggling. Those things bounce and shake like hell at highway speed.
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^^^
agree - my 95 Litespeed has a decal - 96 Litespeed has the badge
agree - my 95 Litespeed has a decal - 96 Litespeed has the badge
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it will be more expensive to repair than to just buy a new (used) replacement
I have seen some cracks like that - Serottas, the early titanium ones, cracked at the shift lever bosses
/markp
I have seen some cracks like that - Serottas, the early titanium ones, cracked at the shift lever bosses
/markp
#34
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Yeah. titanium should just randomly crack like that. Either it was a factory weld defect, or something vibrated/impacted/deteriorated the structure since it was last ridden.
Was the bike racked or transported on a frame-held car rack in its life? I can't figure what would cause this hickey...
Was the bike racked or transported on a frame-held car rack in its life? I can't figure what would cause this hickey...
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In the fatigue test of 13 high-end frames commissioned by the German Tour magazine in 1997, a Merlin titanium frame developed a crack early in the testing that propagated from the shift lever bosses.
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#37
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When I repaired Litespeeds, I got to see the inside. There were colors and other artifacts pointing to incomplete argon purge. Slight discoloration is OK but some spots I saw on Litespeeds were enough to warrant some concern. At Ti cycles, we always let the argon purge run long enough to ensure there was no more oxygen inside, or not enough to harm the hot Ti anyway. But Litespeed was pumping them out at a high rate and apparently couldn't wait as long as we did, at their price point.
I also had reason now and then to see the inside of a Ti Cycles frame, and everything was as shiny as a newly minted dime inside.
Almost any contamination, whether from O2 or nitrogen in the air, or schmutz on the outside (a fingerprint, say), will cause the joint to be brittle locally and much reduce the fatigue endurance.
Not only did we use extra-pure welding rod, but we buffed the outside of the rod with Scotchbrite shortly before welding, and wiped with acetone to remove any residue the Scotchbrite might have left. Even acetone is a contaminant, but luckily it evaporates on its own. Tubes and tiddly bits were cleaned in a hot ultrasonic cleaner.
I'm not a super clean person by nature (just ask my wife...) but I loved making super strong bike frames, which is definitely achievable in Ti with enough care. Dave too, so there was no pressure from "management" to work faster. He charged enough that we could afford to be damn near perfect in our cleaning, handling and purging.
Haven't worked there in over 25 years, and no current connection other than saying hi to him every ten years or so when I see him, like at a bike show. I'm glad he's still at it. I don't know if he's considering retiring but you may want to grab some of his work ASAP, because no one lasts forever.
I also had reason now and then to see the inside of a Ti Cycles frame, and everything was as shiny as a newly minted dime inside.
Almost any contamination, whether from O2 or nitrogen in the air, or schmutz on the outside (a fingerprint, say), will cause the joint to be brittle locally and much reduce the fatigue endurance.
Not only did we use extra-pure welding rod, but we buffed the outside of the rod with Scotchbrite shortly before welding, and wiped with acetone to remove any residue the Scotchbrite might have left. Even acetone is a contaminant, but luckily it evaporates on its own. Tubes and tiddly bits were cleaned in a hot ultrasonic cleaner.
I'm not a super clean person by nature (just ask my wife...) but I loved making super strong bike frames, which is definitely achievable in Ti with enough care. Dave too, so there was no pressure from "management" to work faster. He charged enough that we could afford to be damn near perfect in our cleaning, handling and purging.
Haven't worked there in over 25 years, and no current connection other than saying hi to him every ten years or so when I see him, like at a bike show. I'm glad he's still at it. I don't know if he's considering retiring but you may want to grab some of his work ASAP, because no one lasts forever.
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Another ti builder/repairer is Dave Levy of Ti Cycles; not as well known as some but he is one of the very early ti builders. He's seen it all and has repaired everybody's. I bet he could quickly tell you if that is repairable, how he'd do it if it is and what that would cost. He's in Portland, OR, so that isn't so easy but he has done lots of out of state work. (He takes in repairs of the big name ti builders all the time. I've been to his shop many times. Many builders would rather have Dave repair their frames than do it themselves.)
Last edited by 79pmooney; 12-27-23 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Misspelled Dave's last name! Bad fingers, bad!
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About 10 years ago I had a Ti MTB frame with a similar crack near the seat tube on a 1996 Voodoo Canzo. I shopped around for a Ti builder to repair it for about a year with no luck. Nobody wanted to repair someone else's work. Finally I got Dean Cycles to do the work and they did a reasonable job, about 3 inches of welding for $150 plus 2 way shipping. It probably wasn't worth their time with the prep that was required but they were at least willing to work with me. The repair looked acceptable but I decided that I could never trust that frame again! I mainly did it because over the years I'd logged about 12,000 miles racing and training on that bike and it was irreplaceable to me. The Voodoo is still rideable now, but not for any "real" riding. I ended up buying a Moots next and it all worked out. My advice is find a nice lightly used frame and save yourself lots of time and trouble!
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Another ti builder/repairer is Dave Levey of Ti Cycles; not as well known as some but he is one of the very early ti builders. He's seen it all and has repaired everybody's. I bet he could quickly tell you if that is repairable, how he'd do it if it is and what that would cost. He's in Portland, OR, so that isn't so easy but he has done lots of out of state work. (He takes in repairs of the big name ti builders all the time. I've been to his shop many times. Many builders would rather have Dave repair their frames than do it themselves.)
-Gregory
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When I repaired Litespeeds, I got to see the inside. There were colors and other artifacts pointing to incomplete argon purge. Slight discoloration is OK but some spots I saw on Litespeeds were enough to warrant some concern. At Ti cycles, we always let the argon purge run long enough to ensure there was no more oxygen inside, or not enough to harm the hot Ti anyway. But Litespeed was pumping them out at a high rate and apparently couldn't wait as long as we did, at their price point.
I also had reason now and then to see the inside of a Ti Cycles frame, and everything was as shiny as a newly minted dime inside.
...
I also had reason now and then to see the inside of a Ti Cycles frame, and everything was as shiny as a newly minted dime inside.
...
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Of the popular brands, Litespeed seems to have one of the best reliability rep's, they also made the Merckx EX among many other high-end contract builds.
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There is no reason to not make an inquiry with Litespeed before moving on.
#44
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I think it is completely unreasonable to expect to warranty a 25 year old Litespeed. They - like almost all consumer products - are not going to last forever. Litespeed as a business practice priced their frames/bikes at a price point that was designed to be attractive to potential buyers. This means that the buyer should understand that by paying less, they should expect a lower quality product.
Also looking at the picture of her bike, she has her handlebars quite a bit lower than her saddle. This works great for some young women racers but most - even really fit and not overweight - women will prefer higher handlebars. Otherwise that forward leaning position bothers the sensitive areas of their crotch. My recommendation is to go to a fitter that is women position knowledgable and find a new or new to you frame that will fit her better - particularly as she ages.
BTW, a "lifetime warranty" is a marketing strategy used by companies to encourage buying an expensive bike. They know a certain number will fail but like insurance policies the cost of those replacements are covered by an increased purchase price. Schwinn Paramounts used the heaviest gauge 531 tubing in their lifetime guarantee frame sets. That is fine for the heavier rider but not for a light person. That is another problem of long term guarantee. Building a bike so it won't break does not have the same ride quality as one that is designed to ride the best.
Also looking at the picture of her bike, she has her handlebars quite a bit lower than her saddle. This works great for some young women racers but most - even really fit and not overweight - women will prefer higher handlebars. Otherwise that forward leaning position bothers the sensitive areas of their crotch. My recommendation is to go to a fitter that is women position knowledgable and find a new or new to you frame that will fit her better - particularly as she ages.
BTW, a "lifetime warranty" is a marketing strategy used by companies to encourage buying an expensive bike. They know a certain number will fail but like insurance policies the cost of those replacements are covered by an increased purchase price. Schwinn Paramounts used the heaviest gauge 531 tubing in their lifetime guarantee frame sets. That is fine for the heavier rider but not for a light person. That is another problem of long term guarantee. Building a bike so it won't break does not have the same ride quality as one that is designed to ride the best.
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What caused that rubbing at the top, the shiny bit?
It looks strange that the crack is on the side. A normal force while riding would be a downward force, causing cracks on the front, propagating on both sides.
If from normal riding, the crack should be more open at the front but it looks more open at the side/rear. Has it been subjected to any side forces?
It looks strange that the crack is on the side. A normal force while riding would be a downward force, causing cracks on the front, propagating on both sides.
If from normal riding, the crack should be more open at the front but it looks more open at the side/rear. Has it been subjected to any side forces?
Last edited by pbekkerh; 12-28-23 at 03:59 AM.
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So I gave myself a superficial edumacation in titanium types and it appears Litespeed uses the more brittle type that is more prone to cracking, the 6Al-4V. That's what I read here at least.
https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame
If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃
https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame
If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃
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Good input above. I had a Lemond Zurich Reynolds 853 frame fail in that exact weld and the bead looked like the welder was having a bad day. SInce then I like to see a stack of dimes in critical spots like my Moots.
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So I gave myself a superficial edumacation in titanium types and it appears Litespeed uses the more brittle type that is more prone to cracking, the 6Al-4V. That's what I read here at least.
https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame
If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃
https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame
If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃
This thread is full of bad science and consumer philosophy, but these are the basic facts of this failure:
1. It was caused by a bad weld. Regardless of where the crack propagated to, it started at a contaminated weld point. It really doesn't matter what shape the crack is. Like galvanic corrosion on a carbon bike, the welds shouldn't do this and it is from a defect in construction.
2. Good titanium welds don't crack. The welds should be the strongest part of the bike. It doesn't matter how long it takes - a 49cm bike isn't stressed very much and sits more than it gets ridden. The same contaminated weld would have only lasted a powerful Cat1 racer riding a 60cm one season. These bikes are made of aircraft hydraulic tubing - do you think TWA would be okay with random cracks in their flight control systems?
3. Titanium used in bikes (3/2.5 or 6/4) is twice as flexible as steel. While steel bikes of normal construction will wear out with enough riding (usually the right chainstay near the BB goes first), titanium is very hard to wear out because the frame never flexes into the plastic deformation zone.
4. "Lifetime warranty" is not marketing - it was built into the cost of these not-inexpensive bikes. In the mid-90s the base level Litespeed bare frames were $1500, and a complete Catalyst bike was $3300 in 1996 with Ultegra and alloy rims. You paid for that lifetime warranty, and Litespeed would rather not have people talking about bad welds instead of good customer service.
If Lightspeed makes excuses and won't honor the warranty, find another one. I have bought many of this era Ti frames and bikes for bargain prices because I ride a 50cm and those smaller sizes always go for less. Recently I picked up a Douglas Ti bike complete for $500.
Last edited by Kontact; 12-28-23 at 08:02 AM.
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So I gave myself a superficial edumacation in titanium types and it appears Litespeed uses the more brittle type that is more prone to cracking, the 6Al-4V. That's what I read here at least.
https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame
If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃
https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame
If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃