mstateglfr 

Well sure my example applies to the 80s...both frames I mention are from the 80s. And since the OP cites examples from the 80s and early 90s, it's applicable for me to mention frames from the 80s.

How has US manufacturing for bikes gotten better? Trek is gone. Cannondale is gone. You basically have some boutique low production(relative to the overall market) and that low end big box bike company producing stuff in South Carolina.
Not sure how some small production boutiques and a low end company = manufacturing has gotten better.

Of course you disagree that a steel frame is just as good as a Cannondale frame- you are the joker who can't disagree with Cannondale claiming comparable steel road frames weigh 8 pounds. Sorry, but your opinion on this is worthless.
My point in the earlier post was to show that the touring frame from Japan has excellent finish and is well thought out. Same goes for the Cannondale touring frame.
I'm sure your will complain of shimmy or whatever for the steel touring bikes you mentioned. And ok fine. Comparing a US made Trek 520 steel touring bike from that time period with your Miyata or my Fuji would be apples to apples then. And again, the fit and finish on all of them would be excellent. Ive ridden late 80s and early 90s 520- they are perfectly fine and not inherently better than the Japanese brands mentioned just because 520s were made in the US.

Ha, I had forgotten your absurd argument about steel competition road bikes from the early 90s having frames that weigh 8 pounds. Too funny.




The OP is discussing regular/typical level bikes and not high end boutique Moots or similar US brands.
Comparing boutique custom frames with mass production frames is clearly not apples to apples.


8# steel competition road frame- ha ha.

tcs

With the closing of Victory in Orlando, Florida last fall, AFAIK the last 100% made-in-USA bicycle is RBR in Alameda, California.

tcs

...and no tires.

cyccommute 

There were a lot of crappy frames made in Japan from the 80s and 90s. A Miyata 210, for example, isn’t a gem by any stretch of the imagination. There are lots of other examples from Motobecane, Univega, Peugeot, etc. I see dozens of examples per year at my local co-op. There are some gems out there but they are gems because they are rare.

And the stuff coming in from off-shore now is pretty abominable as well. Yes, the boutique low production guys are making very nice bikes. People will value Deans, Moots, Bilenky, Co-Motion, Waterford, etc because far longer than any production bike you can name because they are well made and well designed.

Does your shoulder hurt? That chip is pretty heavy and must be a such a strain.

And my point is that the finish means little compared to the design. Cannondale touring bikes are a better design than the steel touring bikes I’ve tried.

Perhaps you should ask before you assume. The problem I have with the Miyata, the 520 and the Fuji is the short chainstays and somewhat flexible frames. Heel clipping of panniers was always a problem with my Miyata because of the shorter chainstays. I also could never could climb out of the saddle on my Miyata because the frame was too flexible. I never had much problem with shimmy on the Miyata (only once) but the Cannondale is a better touring bike all around.

Your memory seems to be rather short. One might say you haven’t forgotten at all.



There were too many “regular/typical level bikes” made in the US even in the 80s. Cannondale was making them in the US as were some of the Schwinns. But not many others were US made. Even in the 80s many of those Schwinns were made in Taiwan.

AlmostTrick

I've sometimes wondered why some people say "bikes", when they really are talking about frames.

Not only in this thread, but in plenty of others too. Stuff like this can be found: "I bought a new bike, and I'm going to transfer all the parts from my old bike over to it."

Modern "made in the USA" frames are finished with parts made elsewhere, and that's not a bad thing.

86az135i

Since we are already off topic...Countries are not artificial constructs. They are man made constructs which is not artificial. And these man made constructs have very real ramifications not just for people but the environment. That's why industry loves moving to lesser developed/less regulated countries. Not only cheap labor to exploit, but resources to obtain without any regard to the environment. Same with waste-streams. This jewel is slowly turning into a pile of crap.

mstateglfr 

Ross. Schwinn Chicago plant. Roadmaster. Kent thru the current BCA in South Carolina
US made frames with many(most) models being low end. This was even up into the same general time period we are discussing.
Again- its apples to oranges to compare any enter level bike from one brand with a high end bike from another brand. Its absurd to do so, yet you seem to continue to.



Comparing a handmade steel frame from Japan like Kalavinka, Nagasawa, Toyo, Panasonic POS, Cherubim, etc to handmade frames in the US. They arent close to abominable. And I suggest those brands because they are similar to boutique brands in the US.
Again, try apples to apples.

As for claiming the stuff coming in from off-shore is pretty abominable, please clarify with some details/examples since probably 95% of new frames in the US are made off-shore. Again, comparing stock mass production frames to boutique frames is simply absurd, so try not to.
https://blackmtncycles.com/frames/mcd-frames/ - what is pretty abominable about this?
https://allcitycycles.com/bikes/cosmic_stallion - what is pretty abominable about this?
https://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/questelite.html - what is pretty abominable about this?



Nah, it was just such a funny comment to see you defend, since its baseless and flat out inaccurate. Felt it was worth mentioning again since, you know, its so funny.



What part of the design is better? I havent noticed any lacking design as my steel touring frame is plenty stiff for me plus gear(about 270#), has long enough chainstays for my size 14 shoes to not clip bags, has all the attachments i need, and is stable both loaded and unloaded. I may just have low standards, but Im not sure what else in terms of design is needed.
Oh, my Cannondale touring frame is the same- stable, stiff enough, has attachments, and long enough chainstays.


The Miyata 1000 I have seen had 450mm chainstays. My Fuji made touring frame has 450mm chainstays. My Cannondale touring frame has 18" chainstays. If that 7mm difference is needed by you, then man you really are the outlier since even my feet work for 450mm chainstays without issue.
As for flexible frame, thats partly what I meant by saying shimmy- it can be due to frame trail and due to being flexible. Different thing, similar feeling. I am 240# and dont think my splined Ishiwata regular sized tubing flexes too much, even in a 64cm frame. Once again, this is a preference issue and to claim a frame is inferior due to not liking it being flexible for you is nuts. It could be perfectly great for someone else your size.


I had forgotten, until you decided to reply to one of my posts, then i remembered. See how that works?






I am clearly in the rabbit hole of another cycco discussion.

Litespud

I disagree - in this context, "man-made" is the very definition of artificial. Look what happened in, for example, the Balkans and the Middle East after WWII - people with little more than maps and rulers created countries out of whole cloth - how are these "countries" not artificial? For a few million dollars 150 years ago, Alaska went from being part of Russia to being part of the US. Does the planet really care whether the Romanov Eagle or the Stars and Stripes flies over that chunk of land? Some time in the future, likely in the blink of an eye, geologically-speaking, we'll have rendered this planet uninhabitable to us. The planet will still be here, changed somewhat, but still going, and we, and our borders and flags, will be gone like yesterdays dust off a baseball. However, I do agree that countries have real - and frequently negative - consequences for our shared habitat. By bickering over national priorities, we ignore global priorities. We're arguing about who gets what deckchair while the ship is slowly sinking away beneath us.

tanvir.bikes

Is the 1987 Cannondale still running fine?

carlos danger

In general today about 80% or so frames are made in taiwan. only custom/boutique makers make stuff in the US/EU.
Of the rest about 15% is made in China.
and then we have about 5% made outside of taiwan/china.

when talking components/parts i guess about 95% is made in taiwan. in taichung. everybody that lives in taichung makes stuff for bikes. and they are over 1 million people there. they only make frames and bike parts thats all they do.

Then we have boutique companies like paul and white industries that makes everything in house in the US and always have been. and they also cost thereafter!! but you get customer supports 20 years after and durability right out of the box. so I say its worth it. these companies maybe make up 1% of the component market.

then we have the shimano premium segment like xtr and dura ace, those are made in japan. and I estimate them to account for like 1-5% of the component market. because many people want the best.

-------------

in general bike production moved to japan/taiwan/china about 1990-1995 or so. all of it.

carlos danger

in general bike production moved to japan/taiwan/china about 1990-1995 or so. all of it.

Bonzo Banana

Sturmey Archer were generally better made in England for most of their life. I read about Sturmey Archer as have a few bikes with SA hubs and the metallurgy quality was better on the English hubs and generally the 3 speed hubs were better than the Taiwanese quality for most of their life however at the end SA in England were trying to cut costs to compete and the quality fell as they tried to reduce the unit price to be competitive. There has been issues with modern SA hubs and I've seen comments from a engineer about the Brompton 3 speed hub which while still an excellent hub is not quite as good as the older 3 speed hubs. However the 3 speed hub design is an inherently simple design that performs very well whether you buy a SA England, SA Taiwan or Sachs, SRAM or Shimano Nexus they are very good hubs. However I can't make such a comparison for the hubs with more gears. Quite possible the 4 or 5 speed English hubs aren't as good as the later versions probably due to design revision more than anything. Generally once you go above 3 gears with hubs the reliability and durability drops off considerably unless you buy a Rohloff but that needs a regular oil change to remain reliable and still not as reliable as the simple 3 speed hubs I've read.

I don't think Brexit is so much about restoring British industry it's more about border controls and not having a trading deficit with Europe that we have to pay a membership to be part of. I like being part of Europe but the financial data of being part of the EU is an absolute disaster. Manufacturing in Britain is extremely expensive whether we are inside or outside of Europe. You have to understand membership of the EU has cost cost the UK about half a trillion pounds since the 1970s and with the compound interest that actually makes up a huge percentage of our national debt and that's before you even factor in the damage of the trade deficit and many EU rules that were unfair to the UK. Even so the thought of all the mess that would be caused by leaving the EU is causing many to have second thoughts and our incompetent politicians are dreading dealing with it who probably are completely incapable of managing it. Britain is going to get a lot poorer which ever path we finally choose as our debts will catch up with us. I guess there is at least long term hope with leaving the EU that things will improve I honestly can't see that by remaining in the EU.

AlmostTrick

Here you go, "built with pride in the USA".

BCA TriMatic 3 speed coaster brake folder. 100% working order. (and s-l-o-w)

I sold it to a co-worker for $10. Yes, handle bars got spun 360 after I repaired a rear tube leak.

indyfabz

Not insanely expensive.