Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?
#176
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,889
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,996 Times
in
1,812 Posts
#178
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
I use it when someone says something transparently ridiculous. Since I had downloaded the GIF when you said something transparently ridiculous, it was sitting at the top of my Downloads folder. Serendipitous, you might say.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#179
Senior Member
#180
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,539
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7666 Post(s)
Liked 3,537 Times
in
1,859 Posts
I took an engineering class in carbon fiber back in the early '80s, because I wanted to make carbon frames. One thing that quickly became obvious is that if you wanted to make a carbon frame that was as strong as a steel frame in every possible loading condition, it was going to weigh about the same as a steel frame.
McLaren's 1981 F1 car had a complete CF monocoque. I am pretty sure it didn't weigh as much as a steel frame of similar strength would weigh ... in fact, if it had not been lighter and stronger than an aluminum honeycomb monocoque, then it would have been an aluminum monocoque like prior models had been.
One must keep in mind that that was a complete CF chassis .... the company (and others) must have been experimenting and testing for quite a while before using CF for the entire chassis.
In fact, CF seems to have really started as a practical manufacturing material between 1956 and 1964 (according to the internet, which is always right when it agrees with me. (https://www.nasampe.org/page/CarbonFiber)) Another site says "The door to uses of composite material for commercial aircraft was opened by adoption of GFRP to a radar dome in 1940. In 1975, NASA developed for a research purpose elevators (horizontal rudders) of B727 and B737, and vertical stabilizers of DC10 made of composite material. This switching over from a metal to FRP contributed to about 30% weight reduction." (https://www.carbonfiber.gr.jp/english/field/craft.html)
As far as CF not being as strong as steel .... or a CF frame needing to weigh as much as a steel frame to bear the loads ... I have to think your professor was not a great designer or engineer, or just not up to speed ... I do not mean to cast aspersions, but just think about what we actually know about the strength of CF compared to steel by weight.
What he actually said is, "I could probably do it, but you couldn't." I forget which Va Tech professor told me that. They hired a carbon specialist after I took the course, but I don't think it was him.
Since I was an experienced framebuilder, and he wasn't, I might have had a better chance. He probably wouldn't have been able to build a usable frame. It's not like it was easy to learn about framebuilding in the early '80s. We might have been able to collaborate and be successful. In the end, it's not like it's that difficult.
Since I was an experienced framebuilder, and he wasn't, I might have had a better chance. He probably wouldn't have been able to build a usable frame. It's not like it was easy to learn about framebuilding in the early '80s. We might have been able to collaborate and be successful. In the end, it's not like it's that difficult.
Well, it makes more sense to me ... which isn't really saying anything.
That initial assertion really caught my eye, though. A modern "If man were meant to fly .... ."
#181
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#182
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,992
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26464 Post(s)
Liked 10,423 Times
in
7,238 Posts
.
...if the engineering and development of the modern bicycle makes it so expensive, has anyone stopped to wonder whether all that money now supposedly being spent on innovation and engineering, in the new super bicycles being made and sold, is an appropriate pursuit ? Is it risky for me to point out that these are not formula one cars, no matter how much they might fulfill the same fantasy requirements?
Are the quantitative gains in the cycling industry worth the collective costs being imposed by that same industry ? When does the pursuit of ever smaller gains in speed and efficiency reach the point of diminishing returns ?
If speed of transport on two wheels is your ultimate goal, e-bikes do it cheaper and quicker.
...if the engineering and development of the modern bicycle makes it so expensive, has anyone stopped to wonder whether all that money now supposedly being spent on innovation and engineering, in the new super bicycles being made and sold, is an appropriate pursuit ? Is it risky for me to point out that these are not formula one cars, no matter how much they might fulfill the same fantasy requirements?
Are the quantitative gains in the cycling industry worth the collective costs being imposed by that same industry ? When does the pursuit of ever smaller gains in speed and efficiency reach the point of diminishing returns ?
If speed of transport on two wheels is your ultimate goal, e-bikes do it cheaper and quicker.
#183
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,539
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7666 Post(s)
Liked 3,537 Times
in
1,859 Posts
Bikes (at least in most of the "Western World" or "First World" ... have goner exactly the other way. Bikes are rarely used for transport, and those which are are usually the cheapest bikes and are used by the poorest people. Bikes have gone form transport/toys to "serious sports equipment" and for the upper end of the price range, right into "luxury hobby" status, like power boats and golf clubs---you can buy the utilitarian bass boat or driver, but the good stuff is very expensive.
Seems pretty simple ... not sure why people cannot fathom this. Luxury goods are priced on social cachet, utilitarian goods are priced more for volume sales.
Likes For Maelochs:
#184
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,889
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,996 Times
in
1,812 Posts
Talk about transparently ridiculous.
I paraphrase, of course. Something seemingly not allowed here, but acceptable on other forums.
Can you insert the Jennifer Lawrence gif here for me? I’ve gotta grab dinner. Thanks.
Last edited by smd4; 03-21-24 at 05:14 PM.
#185
Senior Member
The answer to all your questions lies here.
I wasn't the one who first started arguing about cellphones in this thread. YOU were. See I can link your posts too.
Link to your post on page 1 arguing about phones
If your argument is that technological advances naturally should result in ever higher prices, then you massively punched yourself in the face the moment you started arguing about phones.
End of story. Next time don't punch yourself in the face.
#186
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
.
...if the engineering and development of the modern bicycle makes it so expensive, has anyone stopped to wonder whether all that money now supposedly being spent on innovation and engineering, in the new super bicycles being made and sold, is an appropriate pursuit ? Is it risky for me to point out that these are not formula one cars, no matter how much they might fulfill the same fantasy requirements?
Are the quantitative gains in the cycling industry worth the collective costs being imposed by that same industry ? When does the pursuit of ever smaller gains in speed and efficiency reach the point of diminishing returns ?
...if the engineering and development of the modern bicycle makes it so expensive, has anyone stopped to wonder whether all that money now supposedly being spent on innovation and engineering, in the new super bicycles being made and sold, is an appropriate pursuit ? Is it risky for me to point out that these are not formula one cars, no matter how much they might fulfill the same fantasy requirements?
Are the quantitative gains in the cycling industry worth the collective costs being imposed by that same industry ? When does the pursuit of ever smaller gains in speed and efficiency reach the point of diminishing returns ?
If speed of transport on two wheels is your ultimate goal, e-bikes do it cheaper and quicker.
BURN, HERETIC!!!!
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#187
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,539
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7666 Post(s)
Liked 3,537 Times
in
1,859 Posts
.
...if the engineering and development of the modern bicycle makes it so expensive, has anyone stopped to wonder whether all that money now supposedly being spent on innovation and engineering, in the new super bicycles being made and sold, is an appropriate pursuit ? ......
If speed of transport on two wheels is your ultimate goal, e-bikes do it cheaper and quicker.
...if the engineering and development of the modern bicycle makes it so expensive, has anyone stopped to wonder whether all that money now supposedly being spent on innovation and engineering, in the new super bicycles being made and sold, is an appropriate pursuit ? ......
If speed of transport on two wheels is your ultimate goal, e-bikes do it cheaper and quicker.
here is a competing theory---bike manufacturers are in the business of ... Making MONEY. Bikes are just the means to that end.
if more R&D can translate into higher prices and people are paying those higher prices, then to a business which wants to make money, the R&D is perfectly justified.
Pretty much no one buys a bike just for self-powered transport. I meana, this is a bicycle website, and most people here are not car-free, and not that many are full-time or even seasonal commuters. The idea that bicycling and the bike industry is about "transport on two wheels" is a plainly incorrect and unrealistic notion.
#188
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
Re-linking to your own post doesn't do anything. You're just proliferating the wrong.
I wasn't the one who first started arguing about cellphones in this thread. YOU were. See I can link your posts too.
Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?
If your argument is that technological advances naturally should result in ever higher prices, then you massively punched yourself in the face the moment you started arguing about phones.
End of story. Next time don't punch yourself in the face.
I wasn't the one who first started arguing about cellphones in this thread. YOU were. See I can link your posts too.
Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?
If your argument is that technological advances naturally should result in ever higher prices, then you massively punched yourself in the face the moment you started arguing about phones.
End of story. Next time don't punch yourself in the face.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#190
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,889
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,996 Times
in
1,812 Posts
#191
Senior Member
Because mobile phones went from being a luxury item used by only the very wealthy to being a ubiquitous daily life accessory, and an access point for many other cash sources. In many poor countries, people who have nothing more advanced than wooden implements have cell phones, because the cell phones support the banking industry. Nobody needs a cash economy if you have cell phones and banking apps, and the banks, which had no place in those nations' economies for most of the populations, are now raking in the bucks. People who mostly barter and deal only in small sums of cash don't use banks, but as more people got phones 9to be connected to each other) they also transformed the economy from barter and cash to credit transactions---stores do sales via pay-by-phone, workers are paid via direct-deposit pay-by -phone, bills are paid by phone ... suddenly the banking industry had its finders in Everybody's lives, not just the wealthy and upper middle class. Complete transformation driven by cheap cellphones.
Bikes (at least in most of the "Western World" or "First World" ... have goner exactly the other way. Bikes are rarely used for transport, and those which are are usually the cheapest bikes and are used by the poorest people. Bikes have gone form transport/toys to "serious sports equipment" and for the upper end of the price range, right into "luxury hobby" status, like power boats and golf clubs---you can buy the utilitarian bass boat or driver, but the good stuff is very expensive.
Seems pretty simple ... not sure why people cannot fathom this. Luxury goods are priced on social cachet, utilitarian goods are priced more for volume sales.
Bikes (at least in most of the "Western World" or "First World" ... have goner exactly the other way. Bikes are rarely used for transport, and those which are are usually the cheapest bikes and are used by the poorest people. Bikes have gone form transport/toys to "serious sports equipment" and for the upper end of the price range, right into "luxury hobby" status, like power boats and golf clubs---you can buy the utilitarian bass boat or driver, but the good stuff is very expensive.
Seems pretty simple ... not sure why people cannot fathom this. Luxury goods are priced on social cachet, utilitarian goods are priced more for volume sales.
#192
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
You and several others arguments basically boils down to: “We can’t compare anything today with anything from the past because everything is different, and adjusted for inflation bikes today cost the same as they did in 1990.”
I paraphrase, of course. Something seemingly not allowed here, but acceptable on other forums.
Can you insert the Jennifer Lawrence gif here for me? I’ve gotta grab dinner. Thanks.
I paraphrase, of course. Something seemingly not allowed here, but acceptable on other forums.
Can you insert the Jennifer Lawrence gif here for me? I’ve gotta grab dinner. Thanks.
Koyote made the basic point in post #8 on this thread - technological improvements over time complicates direct price comparisons - they're not the same product.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#193
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,889
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,996 Times
in
1,812 Posts
I’m not going to re-quote @Maelochs, but yes, that was well-written.
#194
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
None of the folks I ride with are prone to making fallacious arguments.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#195
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
And now projection.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#196
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,889
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,996 Times
in
1,812 Posts
If I compare top of the line 1989 carbon with Dura Ace with top of the line 2024 carbon with Dura Ace, that somehow is an invalid comparison. And on it goes. Every proposed comparison is met with arguments about why it’s invalid.
And many folks insist that today’s bikes aren’t any more expensive than bikes from previous eras.
No, I think my summarization is quite accurate indeed.
#197
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,889
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 2,996 Times
in
1,812 Posts
#198
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,121
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5039 Post(s)
Liked 8,273 Times
in
3,908 Posts
Based on the examples provided in this thread, it seems that bikes are both more expensive, and not more expensive.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
#199
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts
I'm sure you do.
You seen to be a very binary thinker. Yes/no, black/white, valid/invalid. Instead, realize how the comparison is complicated by not only technological improvement, but even more by the fact that you're looking at the extreme end of the bell curve of bikes - a small segment of the market, not the market as a whole. You seem to want to make that comparison a stand-in for the entire market, which is questionable at best.
If I compare top of the line 1989 carbon with Dura Ace with top of the line 2024 carbon with Dura Ace, that somehow is an invalid comparison. And on it goes. Every proposed comparison is met with arguments about why it’s invalid.
And many folks insist that today’s bikes aren’t any more expensive than bikes from previous eras.
No, I think my summarization is quite accurate indeed.
And many folks insist that today’s bikes aren’t any more expensive than bikes from previous eras.
No, I think my summarization is quite accurate indeed.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#200
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 18,123
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10504 Post(s)
Liked 12,037 Times
in
6,164 Posts