Danhedonia

Looks like tempers frayed, just going to hop back in here.

I don't think 'trainers are bad.' If I did, I wouldn't use them so much. But I do think that they can breed weirdness and in fact some poor habits / misunderstandings. They also bring great benefits: for me, the main two have been concentration on form and truly increased fitness.

As for the 'coasting,' let me explain. I was using a KICKR CORE, in erg mode. There was a sprint, and so ... I sprinted. Hard. I took a wee break after, say 5 seconds, wherein I pedaled, but with little to no pressure on the pedals. It was as close to 'empty spinning' as it gets. Then, I decided to resume my ride rhythm - and exert more force on the pedals. At that moment, Zwift posted a message along the lines of "lets' take this down a notch" and applied substantial braking to the flywheel of the trainer. At the same moment I was resuming pedaling.

I found that jarring, and that first pedal stroke put a lot of stress on the chain.

Conversely, in at least one other program (Rouvy, which I love), this never happens, even though the software definitely is controlling the trainer resistance. Rouvy allows me to 'spin' or 'coast' or hell, Chaad seems far more articulate on this so I'll defer to what he wants to call it. I'll just call it standing on the pedals and taking a couple breaths before pedaling in rhythm again.

I really wasn't wanting to compare software (I have some very mixed opinions of Zwift), more just wondering aloud "what the heck am I doing, riding 35 minute segments at 200 watts without even once breaking rhythm?" Well, perhaps the answer is "suffering from my own stupidity," because I'm such a simple-minded idiot that I just can't stand stopping unless there's serious pain.

At a more insidious level, I also find that there's a certain ... dunno ... esprit de corps? ... missing from Zwift. I do things as that avatar that I'd never do IRL.

All of which I never got from being on rollers ... it's the "alternate universe" that changed it in a weird way. Had I gotten saddle hot spots on rollers I'd never have thought twice about pausing, readjusting, etc. Now I worry about 'erg death spiral' and various other things. Just different.

chaadster

Now Zwift, which is the most social online cycling format and has literally spawned Zwifting studios, lacks esprit de corps?!

This thread is a troll.

Danhedonia

I'd say it lacks esprit de corps. I'd define that phrase as 'all for one.' Instead, Zwift seems super-high-school-ish to me, with just tons of socially hyper-conscious behavior. It's "social" the way "social media" is social, which is to say: not the most functional.

More interesting to me is how my actual riding changes on Zwift.
- Too rigidly aware of momentary stats (avoiding erg death spirals, not losing stars on structured workouts, etc.)
- Bad habits re: avoidance. This is all my own doing, but I find myself working way too hard, then 'cheating' by exploiting drafting.
- Both Zwift and Rouvy definitely make me more likely to extend interval sessions to point of discomfort/strain. Whether this is good or bad, I'm not sure. I read the first bit of Haywire Heart last night and as someone who has some heart issues, found it sobering.
- Just much more goal-oriented than I am outside. Good? Bad? Not sure yet! Never thought I'd give a crap about 'earning drops to get a better climbing frame.'
- Similar to rollers, I find myself thinking about pedaling form more. Unlike rollers, I then tend to get distracted by ... social stuff.

I would imagine that any thread asking others for opinions and/or experiences can be considered trolling. I'm just very aware that this winter - my first using software paired to a smart trainer - my riding sure is 'different.'

aplcr0331

The problem is Zwift then. You don't actually have to use Zwift, you can have a Garmin or Wahoo control your trainer's resistance. That way you can set your own intervals, and just run it off your computer. Then on your screen you can watch Netflix or YouTube or whatever and then you don't have to worry that you can't control your pace in the face of avatars bounding across your screen. Also don't have to worry about status and social smugness trying to get aero wheels, Tron bike, and perfect stars on all intervals.

As to intervals you say this "make me more likely to extend interval sessions to point of discomfort/strain. Whether this is good or bad, I'm not sure" assuming you've checked with your Dr. and I'm guessing you have because if not it would be stupid to be on Zwift getting your HR elevated at all. Anyway back to your question "good or bad" It's extremely good. You want to extend your intervals out...yes to the point of discomfort and it's funny you used strain because that's a huge component of getting faster. Actually don't even think of it as "getting fast" think of it as improvement. Depending on where your current fitness is, you build intervals around that and gradually increase. Improvement. For instance, let's say that you go all out as fast as you can sustain for 20 minutes to kind of test yourself. And your smart trainer says you rode 200 watts for that entire 20 minutes. Well, you'd build intervals around that. Or you could start with a Tempo pace and build a progression. Start with 2X20 Tempo with 5-8 minute rest. Then the next workout (and you'd only do 2 "interval" sessions a week to start) you would do 2X25, 5 minutes rest. Then 3X20, then 2X30 and shorten the rest interval. Make sense. You do want to push yourself for adaptations and to improve. You certainly can do this with Zwift, although their workouts plans are not very good at all, but since you have admitted issue with Zwift you could try it with other platforms (Trainer Road, TrainerDay, etc) or use your head unit to control the trainer's resistance.

Good luck.

Troul 

This.

La Tortue

Just curious since you are speaking as knowledgeable in Zwift have you ever raced in a Zwift Team Time Trial using Discord? If not perhaps you might give this a try and see if this doesn't move the opinion to a more favorable setting.

rubiksoval

Nope. I can get the same workload in during the week in 30-60 minute sessions on the trainer and it doesn't negatively affect me in the least. I can go out and ride 3-4 hard hours on Saturday with no problem.

Like anything, it's what you do with it. It's very "easy" to get 30-60 minutes of super-quality work on the trainer each day to a much greater extent than what you'd get in that same time period and even longer outside. Especially if you're not used to training with power, it's very easy to spend 30-40% of coasting and softpedaling outside which you likely don't (shouldn't) do on the trainer.

rubiksoval

What, from a hill?

That didn't put a lot of stress on the chain. People dole out 1500+ watts on chains every single day. I'm sure the few hundred watts that increased resistance caused you to put out didn't adversely affect it in any way.

In any case, sprinting on a trainer sucks. I don't even bother with doing that. Other workouts are quite effective, though.

chaadster

Asking for opinions isn’t trolling, but making blatantly and flagrantly false assertions like Zwift lacks esprit de corps *is* trolling. It’s obvious to anyone that Zwift has more community spirit and engagement than any other similar platform, and that is only because people really enjoy it. It’s simply off the charts in that regard, and a random definition of esprit de corps as *all for one” does nothing to diguise the intentional trolling. No one being sincere and serious could make uch a claim.

I will grant that you probably don’t understand how Zwift works completely— I don’t even, and I’ve been on for years, since before it was even public access— but the correct response is not to issue ridiculous assertions, but rather to seek information, absorb it, and see if the platform can provide what you want. For example, if you want more team spirit, the suggestion to try a team trial is excellent. Try turning off ERG would be another.

But saying Zwift lacks esprit de corps is just crazy...sh*t, giving Ride On’s has been a core part of the game side of Zwift since launch. People on the road ride in Zwift logo gear, FB groups, TdF collabs, guest pro riders, special events... using Zwift gives riders a way to be a part of something even bigger than a local club does.

caloso

I don't even understand why you'd want to coast on a trainer to begin with. That's the main benefit and the reason that you can get high-quality work done in a time-effective way: you don't have to coast (down a hill, up to a stop sign, whatever).

Maybe I"m not getting it because I've only ever done Zwift on a dumb trainer and 90% of the time I ride Zwift it's to do a structured workout. I'm not sure I'd use Erg mode even if I had the option.

chaadster

Exactly.

I use a Kickr and do mostly structured workouts, too, but never use ERG either. I’m accustomed to doing structured, stationary rides on Cyclops 300PT bikes since before Zwift and still do at the training studio, so using ERG mode just feels weird. I supposeI ould get used to it, but you know...habits.

I do JRA on Zwift sometimes, and just use the climbs, sprint zones, or other riders to get the hard intervals in.

Danhedonia

Sorry to take a while - friend was found dead, rough couple of days.

Chaad, I'm glad you're happy on Zwift. I also hope that at some point you learn to appreciate that not everyone has, or is supposed to have, the same experience or value system as you. Life is richer when you make the effort to understand and compare.

chaadster

I never said I was happy on Zwift, but it’s not about that anyway, nor is about what I appreciate. It’s about facts— observable, demonstrable facts— as a counterpoint to trolling with absurdities and lies.

I don’t care whether you value Zwift or not, only that what it is is represented fairly and accurately, and saying it lacks esprit de corps is both inaccurate and unfair given what can be clearly observed by anyone about the world’s largest online cycling platform.

Branko D

I do my workouts without ERG mode which I don't get along with, but otherwise, whether it's for doing a hour and a bit long Z2 spin or a workout session, a trainer paired with something like Zwift is brilliant and translates to on road fitness very well.

​​​​Of course if you're preparing for something long then a long ride per week is going to be necessary and that's more fun to do outside, but for building fitness, the turbo is more time efficient than outside, really. You don't waste time - from a training perspective, anyway - descending or softpedaling in shelter or riding to a place where you can do intervals.

tomato coupe

Training on a trainer vs. IRL riding

What's "IRL"?

Flip Flop Rider

riding a bike on a trainer is real life too. Is it better than riding outdoors? I'll answer with another question. Is a hammer better than a screw driver?

in certain conditions riding a trainer may be better than riding outside. Not many people getting run over and killed on a trainer

surak

Gonna have to agree with people who say indoor trainers are just a tool that people need to use properly to support their goals. Like any other training tool, specificity is important. People can use them to substantially increase endurance, as long as they actually do endurance efforts on their trainer. It's not impossible, there have been a boom in vEveresting this year due to people like myself being mostly stuck indoors looking for a cycling goal to accomplish after major planned rides were cancelled due to the pandemic.

Training indoors has some major benefits for endurance riding: safety (traffic and daylight) and nutrition/hydration are not limiting factors, routes can be as long and difficult as needed (people who don't live near mountains can learn how to pace HC climbs) without worrying about making it home, there's little incentive to freewheel so more work is compressed into the time spent training. I've found that indoor adaptations can cross over outside -- for instance, fat adaptation from doing lots of 4+ hour indoor Z2 sessions means I need far less food to ride outside at the same or higher power than I did last year.

burnthesheep

Whole topic is off the rails. You can do a structured workout in Zwift without erg, exactly like outdoors. Just pick a flat route. Orrrr memorize a workout and ride up the mountains. I do 3x8 up Volcano climb.

It isn’t rocket science. Also, it is pretty troll like to claim Zwift isn’t social or team oriented.

Also, riding indoors trumps taking months doing only 100 TSS a week outdoors.

It is a poor assumption everyone can or wants to ride outdoors in winter weather.

Other poor assumption is that folks who often train an hour at a time can’t ride further. Just back off the power. Or hurt. Like breaking 2hrs for a 50mi. That is a good project! Or doing the 103mi and 12k ft of aomm.

50PlusCycling

For me there has never been a substitute for outdoor riding. I use rollers at home when the weather is too bad to ride outside, and I sometimes use a trainer at the gym. There is no way I can ride on rollers or sit on a trainer 2 or more hours, so they cannot take the place of a "real" ride, but they can keep my fitness from falling off when I can't ride outdoors. I do regular riding on rollers because there is no better way to improve one's pedal stroke, and they greatly improve the stability of your outdoor riding. After your first session on rollers you can feel the difference when you ride your bike on the road.

Toespeas

ya definitely need a rocker plate and a nice tv to watch some ride along videos , always helps , i have given up , its probably more benificial to have an hard intese spring to fall and an easy winter than smashing indoors just to pretend you are staying fit !?

genejockey 

I managed an hour and a half on Zwift tonight, about half an hour longer than I've been doing, so more like the last of my postwork rides before time change. I tried riding with one of the Pace Partners, which worked for a while, but once you hit hills it all goes to hell, because the Pace Partner doesn't increase wattage for the climb, like humans do. No, he tooled up a 5-7% grade at 1.4 w/kg, which is just about enough to avoid falling over. It was annoying. After the second time he fell so far back that I wasn't getting any 'drops' benefit out of it, I just powered down the other side and didn't bother with him. DEFINITELY a different experience from a group ride on the road. Probably different from a group ride on Zwift - which is what I'm going to try next.

For me, there are enough challenges to keep me going - so far - and I find I enjoy chasing down and passing others, while not so much minding the riders passing me. BUT any way you slice it, it's not food for the soul, like a ride on the road is.

olddcarnutjag

[QU=Danhedonia;21830675]Hoping mods don't move this.

Like many, I've purchased a smart trainer and am using various software for "pain cave" sessions. As a dedicated Fred, I've noticed that trainer riding and outdoor riding are not correlative. As a guy who once used rollers, I get that - but what I am seeing in others is an increasing focus on short-ride performance.

In other words, I suspect that many who are cutting their teeth as indoor cyclists will find longer rides a challenge.

Or maybe I'm in really poor shape, or maybe I just can't be bothered to destroy myself for 35 minutes and call that "riding."

The two activities don't feel as related as I'd thought. Anyone else?[/QUOTE]

DaveLeeNC

I have a somewhat different perspective where I feel like I literally 'need' an indoor trainer to supplement my IRL riding. In the last serious ride that I did (10K+ feet of climbing in a century) I felt undertrained in a very specific way. Where I ride it is nothing but short/rolling hills. There are no flats of any length, no climbs of any length, etc. IRL I find it basically impossible to do 30 or more minutes of steady/hard effort. And the fact that my body had not tried to do that is where I felt undertrained in that previously described ride.

So (assuming the Covid allows it) when I take this on this year, I will be supplementing my IRL training with some simulated 'long climbs'. In my case the trainer will be a spinner bike with Garmin Vector pedals. A high quality smart bike might be better, but this will do the job I think (better than trying to do it IRL). Actually I have considered doing it kind of hybrid style where maybe I go out IRL for 90 minutes and then do an hour of climbing on my spinner bike.

dave