Why so many Trek Bikes out there?
02-06-19 | 03:46 PM
#101
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,550
Likes: 1,812
From: Southwestern Ontario
Merida makes many of Specialized's frames. The ownership also explains why we can't buy Merida-branded bikes in North America.
02-06-19 | 03:48 PM
#102
Mad bike riding scientist
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,148
Likes: 6,204
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Specialized started as a US importer of tires and other parts. They started selling bicycles in 1981. They introduced the first production mountain bike in 1981 but I don’t believe any of their bikes were ever produced in the US. Trek did manufacture them here for a very long time.
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Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-06-19 | 03:56 PM
#103
Banned
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,480
Likes: 450
In brief, suggest to read up on the LeMond vs. Trek / Armstrong era. You know about Armstrong.
Trek is a slime marketing outfit that continues to deceive the buyer. The only portion of US production is a sliver of CF bikes. Almost all of their products are outsourced or Asian made. But corporate leadership consistently whine about govt tax and how they're at a disadvantage. They sell out jobs to other countries anyways.
>>Trek consumed competitor bike companies and then shuttered them too! More jobs loss due their greed. Without getting all political, read up on some family members.<<
Racing and marketing~
Moving forward, the recent busted Cordosa. They (Trek) also have Contador who's been busted in the past and has cheat written on his forehead. Trek, after all the drama and deceit with Armstrong, will to this very day continues to approve and sponsor long known doped riders.
Win at all cost and just get that Trek brand on the podium. That's all that matters to Trek.
Hence, a very small percentage of Americans follow pro road cycling and as Trek obviously knows this. Joe Consumer who doesn't follow racing walks into a Trek store sees the 'winners choice' as a convincing sales pitch.
Trek is a slime marketing outfit that continues to deceive the buyer. The only portion of US production is a sliver of CF bikes. Almost all of their products are outsourced or Asian made. But corporate leadership consistently whine about govt tax and how they're at a disadvantage. They sell out jobs to other countries anyways.
>>Trek consumed competitor bike companies and then shuttered them too! More jobs loss due their greed. Without getting all political, read up on some family members.<<
Racing and marketing~
Moving forward, the recent busted Cordosa. They (Trek) also have Contador who's been busted in the past and has cheat written on his forehead. Trek, after all the drama and deceit with Armstrong, will to this very day continues to approve and sponsor long known doped riders.
Win at all cost and just get that Trek brand on the podium. That's all that matters to Trek.
Hence, a very small percentage of Americans follow pro road cycling and as Trek obviously knows this. Joe Consumer who doesn't follow racing walks into a Trek store sees the 'winners choice' as a convincing sales pitch.
Last edited by crank_addict; 02-06-19 at 07:34 PM.
02-06-19 | 03:56 PM
#104
Mad bike riding scientist
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,148
Likes: 6,204
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
I’m going to beat you to it and post my anti-Trek (and other large brands) that is not only anti-Trek but anti-Shimano and anti-import bikes:
My Dean. US made (actually Colorado made) with 14 US made components or accessories (4, including the frame, made in Colorado)
DSCN0934 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
And my Moots US made with 16 US made component or accessories (5, including the frame, made in Colorado). Although it isn’t anti-Shimano in this picture, the Shimano crank has been replaced since the photo was taken.
IMG_3144 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
My Dean. US made (actually Colorado made) with 14 US made components or accessories (4, including the frame, made in Colorado)
DSCN0934 by Stuart Black, on FlickrAnd my Moots US made with 16 US made component or accessories (5, including the frame, made in Colorado). Although it isn’t anti-Shimano in this picture, the Shimano crank has been replaced since the photo was taken.
IMG_3144 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-06-19 | 07:08 PM
#105
Banned.
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,128
Likes: 315
From: Vegemite Island
Bikes: 2017 Surly Troll with XT Drive Train, 2017 Merida Big Nine XT Edition, 2016 Giant Toughroad SLR 2, 1995 Trek 830
I’m going to beat you to it and post my anti-Trek (and other large brands) that is not only anti-Trek but anti-Shimano and anti-import bikes:
My Dean. US made (actually Colorado made) with 14 US made components or accessories (4, including the frame, made in Colorado)
DSCN0934 by Stuart Black, on FlickrWhat are the brands of derailleur's, shifters and brakes on this bike?
02-06-19 | 09:59 PM
#107
Mad bike riding scientist
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,148
Likes: 6,204
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-06-19 | 10:07 PM
#108
Non omnino gravis
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,552
Likes: 1,739
From: SoCal, USA!
Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn, Lakitu
I don't understand the hullabaloo around "buying American" purely for the sake of buying American. KHS is 100% Taiwanese (started making bikes in Taiwan in 1974,) and they make excellent bikes. My wife's been riding a Flite500 for 7 years now.
But a lot of people shop by the label. Sister-in-law opted for a Trek Silque over a KHS Flite 780... and the KHS had Di2 and cost $1,300 less. Go figure.
But a lot of people shop by the label. Sister-in-law opted for a Trek Silque over a KHS Flite 780... and the KHS had Di2 and cost $1,300 less. Go figure.
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02-06-19 | 11:41 PM
#109
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 780
Likes: 155
From: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4
Lynskey makes close to 10,000 frames a year, which is low for mass production but very high for hand-built frames. Given the nature of the U.S. economy and the extremely high cost of labor combined with very high costs for EPA compliance with industrial waste mitigation and disposal, I doubt there are many, if any, higher-volume manufacturers here in the states.
BCA puts out 10x that number of bikes per year, and they have an assembly plant in South Carolina, but the bikes they assemble are comprised of frames and components shipped from Asia.
So I guess it depends on what you define as "made."
I doubt it.
BCA puts out 10x that number of bikes per year, and they have an assembly plant in South Carolina, but the bikes they assemble are comprised of frames and components shipped from Asia.
So I guess it depends on what you define as "made."
Is there a production bike made that is all American including components?
02-06-19 | 11:48 PM
#110
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 724
Likes: 510
From: Redmond, WA & Bangkok, Thailand
Bikes: 1999 Giant ATX MTB, 2002 Lemond Zurich, 2018 Fuji Transonic 2.3, 2019 Specialized Tarmac Disc Expert
I rarely see Trek at all, which is weird, because they have a store in Redmond, two towns over. I see a crapload of Specialized here on the East side of Puget sound. Mix of super-high-end carbon and a lot of really practical-for-the-area AWOL-style stuff. In Seattle proper, I see a lot of Surly/Soma/Salsa steel and a lot of vintage.
02-06-19 | 11:53 PM
#111
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 780
Likes: 155
From: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Bikes: 2018 Lynskey Cooper CX; 2007 Cannondale F4
Taiwanese products can be just as good as (and are in many cases better than) American-manufactured products. And are almost always less expensive, if a USA-made equivalent exists at all. I don't begrudge anyone for buying foreign-made stuff for that reason. A lot of products, parts and components simply aren't made by anyone in the USA anymore. Example: There are no USA-made stainless steel water bottles. None, zilch, nada.
02-07-19 | 07:26 AM
#113
Zip tie Karen
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,005
Likes: 1,546
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
In brief, suggest to read up on the LeMond vs. Trek / Armstrong era. You know about Armstrong.
Trek is a slime marketing outfit that continues to deceive the buyer. The only portion of US production is a sliver of CF bikes. Almost all of their products are outsourced or Asian made. But corporate leadership consistently whine about govt tax and how they're at a disadvantage. They sell out jobs to other countries anyways.
>>Trek consumed competitor bike companies and then shuttered them too! More jobs loss due their greed. Without getting all political, read up on some family members.<<
Racing and marketing~
Moving forward, the recent busted Cordosa. They (Trek) also have Contador who's been busted in the past and has cheat written on his forehead. Trek, after all the drama and deceit with Armstrong, will to this very day continues to approve and sponsor long known doped riders.
Win at all cost and just get that Trek brand on the podium. That's all that matters to Trek.
Hence, a very small percentage of Americans follow pro road cycling and as Trek obviously knows this. Joe Consumer who doesn't follow racing walks into a Trek store sees the 'winners choice' as a convincing sales pitch.
Trek is a slime marketing outfit that continues to deceive the buyer. The only portion of US production is a sliver of CF bikes. Almost all of their products are outsourced or Asian made. But corporate leadership consistently whine about govt tax and how they're at a disadvantage. They sell out jobs to other countries anyways.
>>Trek consumed competitor bike companies and then shuttered them too! More jobs loss due their greed. Without getting all political, read up on some family members.<<
Racing and marketing~
Moving forward, the recent busted Cordosa. They (Trek) also have Contador who's been busted in the past and has cheat written on his forehead. Trek, after all the drama and deceit with Armstrong, will to this very day continues to approve and sponsor long known doped riders.
Win at all cost and just get that Trek brand on the podium. That's all that matters to Trek.
Hence, a very small percentage of Americans follow pro road cycling and as Trek obviously knows this. Joe Consumer who doesn't follow racing walks into a Trek store sees the 'winners choice' as a convincing sales pitch.
* I have no beef against early production steel Treks. My wife rides a 620 and it is really a fine bicycle.
02-07-19 | 08:19 AM
#114
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 489
Likes: 50
From: Way Out West
Bikes: carbon bamboo composite is the best
Lynskey makes close to 10,000 frames a year, which is low for mass production but very high for hand-built frames. Given the nature of the U.S. economy and the extremely high cost of labor combined with very high costs for EPA compliance with industrial waste mitigation and disposal, I doubt there are many, if any, higher-volume manufacturers here in the states.
BCA puts out 10x that number of bikes per year, and they have an assembly plant in South Carolina, but the bikes they assemble are comprised of frames and components shipped from Asia.
So I guess it depends on what you define as "made."
I doubt it.
BCA puts out 10x that number of bikes per year, and they have an assembly plant in South Carolina, but the bikes they assemble are comprised of frames and components shipped from Asia.
So I guess it depends on what you define as "made."
I doubt it.
I guess not, there is no such thing. Too bad.
What needs to change for their to be a resurgence of American bicycle manufacturing? You mention EPA regs, which I hadn't thought of, but they are being modified or reduced.
Do the recent tariffs and import restrictions on Chinese goods effect made in Taiwan bikes? Does anybody know if the recent changes are encouraging an increase in American bicycle manufacturing?
02-07-19 | 08:40 AM
#115
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 7,393
Likes: 945
From: Looney Tunes, IL
Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!
I was thinking from the ground up, tires, rims, hubs, frame, drivetrain, everything. Frame made from American carbon or alu, etc.
I guess not, there is no such thing. Too bad.
What needs to change for their to be a resurgence of American bicycle manufacturing? You mention EPA regs, which I hadn't thought of, but they are being modified or reduced.
Do the recent tariffs and import restrictions on Chinese goods effect made in Taiwan bikes? Does anybody know if the recent changes are encouraging an increase in American bicycle manufacturing?
I guess not, there is no such thing. Too bad.
What needs to change for their to be a resurgence of American bicycle manufacturing? You mention EPA regs, which I hadn't thought of, but they are being modified or reduced.
Do the recent tariffs and import restrictions on Chinese goods effect made in Taiwan bikes? Does anybody know if the recent changes are encouraging an increase in American bicycle manufacturing?
02-07-19 | 08:56 AM
#116
Mad bike riding scientist
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,148
Likes: 6,204
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Another part of the appeal is to have a bike that is unique. There are no other bikes on the planet like the two above. There are few that are even “like” the bikes I posted above.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-07-19 | 09:15 AM
#117
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 489
Likes: 50
From: Way Out West
Bikes: carbon bamboo composite is the best
Part of the appeal is the hunt. It’s not all that easy to find American made parts and the end result is a bike that is unique. And some of those American parts are superior to their foreign counterparts.
Another part of the appeal is to have a bike that is unique. There are no other bikes on the planet like the two above. There are few that are even “like” the bikes I posted above.
02-07-19 | 09:34 AM
#118
Mad bike riding scientist
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,148
Likes: 6,204
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
I was thinking from the ground up, tires, rims, hubs, frame, drivetrain, everything. Frame made from American carbon or alu, etc.
I guess not, there is no such thing. Too bad.
What needs to change for their to be a resurgence of American bicycle manufacturing? You mention EPA regs, which I hadn't thought of, but they are being modified or reduced.
Do the recent tariffs and import restrictions on Chinese goods effect made in Taiwan bikes? Does anybody know if the recent changes are encouraging an increase in American bicycle manufacturing?
I guess not, there is no such thing. Too bad.
What needs to change for their to be a resurgence of American bicycle manufacturing? You mention EPA regs, which I hadn't thought of, but they are being modified or reduced.
Do the recent tariffs and import restrictions on Chinese goods effect made in Taiwan bikes? Does anybody know if the recent changes are encouraging an increase in American bicycle manufacturing?
It is possible to get front and rear derailers that are US made but they are extremely pricey and and a bit dated. Paul Components made both back in the 90s and they were extremely expensive then. You can occasionally find them now but the rear derailer alone goes for close to $500 on Fleabay. I’m not sure I’d put a collectible like that on a bike.
There are old stock triple cranks available and maybe some new single speed cranks that are US products as well as bottom brackets. If you use flat pedals, those are available as well but not necessarily clipless. Wheelsmith makes spokes in the US. About the only thing I can’t think of that isn’t US made are shifters, cables, housing, and tires.
Here’s a list of US made products that I think is pretty comprehensive.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-07-19 | 09:36 AM
#119
02-07-19 | 09:48 AM
#120
Tragically Ignorant
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15,593
Likes: 9,108
From: New England
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Just got this cool bike--it's the Trek Nigne.
Apologies to [MENTION=186391]indyfabz[/MENTION]
02-07-19 | 09:48 AM
#121
Mad bike riding scientist
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,148
Likes: 6,204
From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Probably not since that’s not going to happen. Several of my bikes are US made but not all of them. None of my bikes are something you’ll find on a showroom floor, however. Even my Specialized Epic is unique compared to stock. Mass produced, yes but still unique.
__________________
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-07-19 | 11:25 AM
#122
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 125
Likes: 7
From: SE USA
Bikes: 2018 Fuji Jari 1.5, 2019 Trek Domane SL5
I thought part of being into bikes is getting what you want despite there being little difference in many of the brand names offered in the US now a days. I went with Trek because we have a solid support system around us and the ride was the most comfortable out of all others I tried. I could have picked up a Specialized for a bit cheaper and nicer color but I felt the Isospeed stuff actually made a difference having a bum disc in my neck, well, whether it’s in my head or not, it seems to help on long rides compared to the others.
To say they're all the same is not 100% true but how much a mm there or a mm here really matters can be debated forever. But to me it seemed like the Isospeed wasn’t just marketing, rather it’s true engineering that has “some” effect on my ride so it made sense to go that route. Or maybe it’s me trying to justify my purchase but what does it matter if I was going to spend the money on a bike regardless? Buy what fits you, is comfortable and makes you want to ride more. If that’s a 10k bike with a shiny name, go for it!
I’ve never understood the whole mentality of not supporting brands that sponsor known dopers. I’m sure every brand has had a doper on their bikes in a world class race at some point so that’s just silly. People dope, always have and always will regardless of which bike they ride or who sponsors them. lol
To say they're all the same is not 100% true but how much a mm there or a mm here really matters can be debated forever. But to me it seemed like the Isospeed wasn’t just marketing, rather it’s true engineering that has “some” effect on my ride so it made sense to go that route. Or maybe it’s me trying to justify my purchase but what does it matter if I was going to spend the money on a bike regardless? Buy what fits you, is comfortable and makes you want to ride more. If that’s a 10k bike with a shiny name, go for it!
I’ve never understood the whole mentality of not supporting brands that sponsor known dopers. I’m sure every brand has had a doper on their bikes in a world class race at some point so that’s just silly. People dope, always have and always will regardless of which bike they ride or who sponsors them. lol
02-07-19 | 12:46 PM
#123
Been Around Awhile
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 30,657
Likes: 1,975
From: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
02-07-19 | 01:14 PM
#124
Zip tie Karen
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,005
Likes: 1,546
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
I’ve never understood the whole mentality of not supporting brands that sponsor known dopers. I’m sure every brand has had a doper on their bikes in a world class race at some point so that’s just silly. People dope, always have and always will regardless of which bike they ride or who sponsors them. lol
02-07-19 | 03:22 PM
#125
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 659
Likes: 211
The storied Trek 720
And, I will note that Trek was an established brand well before Lance came along. I had a Trek 660 back in the mid-80s and bought a Trek 9300 (or whatever it was) in the early 90s. The storied Trek 720 touring bike was around since at least as far back as the early 80s. The 520, still produced today, was introduced in, I believe '83.