Alright I read an article on a training site (cyclesmart) about latic acid threshold (LT) intervals. They mentioned that there are two ways to do LT intervals, one in a higher ring at lower cadence (mashing) va a lower ring at high cadence (spinning). In the context of criteriums which is a more beneficial LT interval?

By criterium I mean that there is flat or gradual climbing courses where speed (as in velocity) is just as important is power. As I do LT intervals I hope to raise my latic acid tolerance and raise the threshold so I can go faster. This is realted to power so we can not forget that but I am not talking as spinning up a hill like in a road race.

I have a 4 week build period going into my A priority race but I would also like to hang with the pack at a few races I have between then... I want to do as much as I can for speed before then.

All said which interval is going to give me more speed in a criterium...? Thanks

I would go with spinning over mashing. I prefer to spin a higher cadence than to mash a big gear. Generally speaking are you a masher or a spinner?

Also, I don't see that much difference between an LT interval done when spinning and one done when mashing. From personal experience I know I'd reach LT faster when mashing than spinning. Would you mind posting a link for the article you read. I'd like to check it out.

You should do a bit of both, as they are stressing you in different ways. Personally I always emphasised spinning over mashing. The real key is to rest enough between intervals so that the intensity and duration of the effort can be as high as possible.

Do you have any opportunities to MotorPace?

alot depends on the course and your personal preference; how strong are you? flat to gradual climbing allows for really either/or. in most cat. 4/5 criteriums, you'll notice that the speed consistency is terrible- slowish corners, then crazy sprints out of them every time, constantly gapping people towards the back. staying with the pack is really about staying at the front, and being able to take corners at speed with the fast guys. work on positioning within the group, so that you dont constantly have to work to stay on. some super fast crits will have you at LT for 80% of the race or more depending on the conditions. especially if you manage a breakaway.

What he said. Being able to spin up to cross the gaps each time is key, IMO. Speed kills as they say

Personally I can not spin RPMs of over 100 for extended period of time, expecially with 180 mm cranks all though I can spin up to 120 at times. I tend to mash when I try and close gaps which is why I probably get tired when in the pack, always trying to close gaps.

Someone said that I need to stay out of the big gears for a long time and try and conserve energy. It seems like they mean spin vs mash. The inability to spin at over 100 RPMs for a long time may have to do with the need to work on areobic base more in the off season which I will look into.

check out https://www.cycle-smart.com/Articles/index.html for alot of good training articles on the subject.

Thanks again...

IMHO the constant standing and sprinting takes the most out of you in a crit. As chairs said, positioning is key. But, it is a lot easier to say 'stay at the front' than to do it.

Good luck!

how tall are you and what size bike do you ride

In my expirence, as long as there are no significant hills my chain never ever leavs the big ring.

I used to spin until a Cat I racer form my group rides suggested I keep it in the big ring and use the power I have. I did and I got much much faster. Turns out I'm a masher not a spinner. 90rpm is fast for me.

He was right about the big ring, but I guess it all depends on your style and where' you're comfortable. I spent the whole race on sunday in the big ring and every time I looked down at my computer (which wasn't too often I admit) the rpms were 100 or so. I'm just comfortable there and find that when I need to shift to a higher gear, it's smoother and easier on the legs than when I shift up from a lower rpm. For me, anyway, it's easier to get a "snap" when I'm spinning at around 100. I think I need to work on using a higher gear and lower rpms when doing some hills though as I have a tendency to exhaust myself frantically spinning at 100+ up hills when I could power up the smaller ones instead - I never seem to ever get out of the saddle, which on the short hills in crits is probably hurting me.

very true, especially with all the sandbagging that goes on in 4/5 racing in the D20 as i'm sure you know. there are definitley some 3s lurking in there, some really good ones too.

those constant sprints ARE what drain you, having to keep up with those leaders on every single corner is the entire point of crits, and you will get super fatigued after doing that every time. the top 10-15 spots are the places you want to fight to be in, as those are where the action happens, and the least amount of turbulence is (hopefully), and where you are less likely to get involved with a crash (hopefully again).

cornering abilities really do go a long way- if you are coming off the back alot, you can make up time in those corners, mainly since individuals or small groups can take them at a much higher velocity than the group. and remember if its a windy course, stay with others!

I disagree with this statement. It does take an expendature of energy to stay near the front, and some mental alertness. However this is far outweighed by not having to deal with the accordion in the pack out of every turn, having to bridge gaps in the Field, ect. Skills that will help this:

1. Learn to read the dynamics occuring in the top 10 or 20 riders in a pack. The movement here tends to stay the same race to race. It is possible to stay in the top 10 in a field and never really be at the front.This takes experience, but if you are at the back you can't gain it. If you find yourself towards the back of the field early on I would do everything short of blowing up to get to the front, in the long run you are much better off being a little gassed in the top 10 than bouncing aroung in the back.
2. Work on the ability to Jump then recover. You will need this to accelerate into small gaps/holes to help you maintain position.
3. Learn to Corner Fast, this is the easiest way to gain position w/o acceleration.

Both. Crit racing is all about having a full bag of tricks. You need a fast smooth spin as much as you need to be able to stand and "run" or stand and mash. You need tenacious cornering skills and a fearless pack riding ability. It's all about hanging and attacking ...hanging and attacking ...all the while saving the best for last.

I prefer to stand as little as possible unless the course is hilly. You're more vulnerable to crashes when out of the saddle ...if that helps any.

I totally agree with Voodoo:

QUOTE=Voodoo76]It does take an expendature of energy to stay near the front, and some mental alertness. However this is far outweighed by not having to deal with the accordion in the pack out of every turn, having to bridge gaps in the Field, ect. Skills that will help this:

1. Learn to read the dynamics occuring in the top 10 or 20 riders in a pack. The movement here tends to stay the same race to race. It is possible to stay in the top 10 in a field and never really be at the front.This takes experience, but if you are at the back you can't gain it. If you find yourself towards the back of the field early on I would do everything short of blowing up to get to the front, in the long run you are much better off being a little gassed in the top 10 than bouncing aroung in the back.
2. Work on the ability to Jump then recover. You will need this to accelerate into small gaps/holes to help you maintain position.
3. Learn to Corner Fast, this is the easiest way to gain position w/o acceleration.[/QUOTE]

6'6", 63 cm bike.

I will have to work on the short bursts also it seems, like the bursts required to get on someones wheel or accelate through holes. In my first crit I was almost never out of the saddle, I seem to develop lots of power while sitting and pushing a hard gear. It really seems like what gets me is exactly short bursts.

I appricate the comment on staying in the front. As I gain experience I hope that becomes easier. I have good cornering skills which actually is the reason why I was able to hold on the the back so long after I got dropped. I guess in the next month I will then have to work on those two skills... The best way will probably to do LT intervals and to do spinups while in the middle of a standard interval to develop power over LT which seems to mimic most what happens in a race.

And of course on climbing...

[QUOTE=my58vw]6'6", 63 cm bike.

The best way will probably to do LT intervals and to do spinups while in the middle of a standard interval to develop power over LT which seems to mimic most what happens in a race.

QUOTE]

Doing some anarobic/recovery work is a great idea, as the pack could give a rip what your LT is . Remember to develope the mental game, an important trait to develop early is a sense of urgency about position in a race, succesfull tail gunning is really only for the very experienced. This is one significant difference between a Racer and a dude who is fast on a bike.

With all do respect to Voodoo, everybody in the race wants to 'stay at the front' and that is what makes it hard to do! The pack is always ebbing and flowing. You could be in a prime spot, one or two places back from the front when someone attacks. If you are boxed in and the guys in front dont respond untill half the pack has passed, then your prime spot turned to poo and you have to work your way back up. On the last couple laps if the pack is all together, everybody gets antsy and that is when all the crashes happen - riders trying to stuff their bike in a spot where it won't fit.

Appreciate the respect, and agree that position is a very dynamic thing. But my take on this is very different. I had a coach once who had an annoying habit of asking me simple but tough questions. His response to the above would be "why did you let yourself get boxed in?". This simple question is very empowering. The point is it's your choice how long you stay in one place, it's your choice who's wheel you are on, ect. You can not make progress as long as you simply respond to what the pack gives you, as you are not learning to make the correct decisions (or even realizing what decisions you made). Take control mentally & make others respond. Sometime you put yourself in the right position, sometimes you don't, but at least you begin to understand the process.

The fact that you can't spin 120 for long periods of time, has nothing to do with your crank arm length, It's simply because you're not used to it. If you want to be able to do that, start doing it more often.

A triathlete friend of mine said "I can't go 25mph for very long, so I just go 22.5mph" My response was, if you don't go 25mph, you never will go 25mph.

That being said, 120 may not be your most efficient cadence either, everyone is different. Effecient pedaling is the basis of the sport, everything else is secondary.

What kind of anarobic work would you sugest then? Short hard sprints vs longer anarobic intervals? As to the mental that is not a problem as to Urgency. When I got dropped last time I did not give up. I knew it was urgent to catch the pack and I did everything I could to try and do that...

Excellent Post!



Staying near the front takes a lot of work and attention, and sometimes you have to have your nose in the wind more than might think you should. A lot of new racers who try and stay near the front, expect to do it without doing any work, and that's tough to do without teamates. Put taking a few pull is always easier than having to sprint from 18 to 29 4 times a lap, especially if you time your pulls correctly.

The following assumes a left hand corner....

If you find yourself going from the very front, to the very back after your pull, pull off the front about 50 meters from the next corner, on the inside of the pack. Keep your speed up so that no more than a few guys get past. Then just dive into the corner with them. The guy to your right and in front of you cant see you, so make sure he doesnt chop you, the guy to your right and behind you sees you the whole time and will have to make a choice, between continuing to overlap his front wheel with your rear, and also run the risk of getting pushed wide into the curb on the exit. Or...... sliding in behind you.

The reason you don't want too many guys to get past you before you do this is two fold.

1. It keeps YOU closer to the front.

2. The guy you are forcing to follow you is only ok with it if he feels he is near the front too. Too far back, and the guy thinks of you who as somone ahead of him who needs to be passed, becaues he wants to get up front too. But near the front, everyone is gratefull for a wheel to follow, it means longer till they have to pull. Teamates are invaluable here, as they can open a slot for you in an instant.

note: on the last lap, people may not be so co operative, your results may vary.

I almost always race in the big ring during a crit.....but that doesn't mean you cannot spin at high cadence just because you are in the big ring.

My58vw....you said that you cannot spin at a high cadence above 100 comfortably...which is precisely why you should do it in training until you can become very comfortable doing it....refine this skill until it becomes as natural as breathing. Repetition is the mother of skill. It is a skill not a genetic gift...so that means this can be developed. If you are really having a problem with it then I can tell you that this is a handicap to you and that you will become a better road racer when you work to overcome this handicap.
Every training ride should have a predetermined purpose. Try to work on your high cadence spinning perhaps a day or two per week. As your muscles and neuro pathways are developed through this type of training...you are going to become much more economic and effecient. This is going to pay you dividends if you start now. You will see results I guarantee you. As a result of being much more effecient...you will have much more in your tank later in the race. You are going to find the race pace a bit more comfortable and you should find it easier to stay comfortably in the pack when the pace is hot and some of the others are much less comfortable than you. Having more in your tank later in the race will mean the difference between finishing with the group versus getting dropped, between finishing 3rd instead of 18th. Good economy and effecient pedaling technique will shift the energy burden to the most effecient systems. The physiology systems that are most effecient for sprinting should not be accessed and exhausted during the middle and later stages of the race due to poor technique...but should instead be reserved for the finish. But those that have poor economy and effeciency will often do just that....and the energy burden is often placed upon the wrong systems at the wrong times. It is because the muscles and nerves are not properly refined through purposeful and repetitive training. It's like trying to write with your left hand(assuming you are right handed)...but you can get better with work.

I do not consider this a specialized skill...but rather a more basic and fundamental skill. It is part of your foundation as a racer that should not be neglected.

whatever it takes to not get spat out the back.

If you're training methods are effective then you should be able to do either (see ed's post above).

Criteriums are high speed game of skill, tactics, and daring. You need a full bag of tricks to be consistently good at them. So you need to be able to apply the power to breakaway or jump a gap, you need to spin to recover and rest, you need both for the finishing blast.

If you're only good at one then you will pidgeon-hole yourself into a small range of racing styles. Crafty riders will spot this weakness and exploit it. And they will enjoy making you suffer

Thank you again, it seems like I need to definitly work on the spinning side of things then to round out my skill level. I know I have the sprinting ability for the short stuff but it does seem after reading your posts that indeed efficient pedaling will allow me to exploit the power when I need to (like when bridging a gap). I have never really empheised cadence over 90 to 100 before in training. I guess when I do my intervals and even endurance aerobic rides I should focus on cadence more than I do.

Of course one question remains, are you doing less work spinning higher in a lower gear at the same speed as mashing a high gear with low cadence at the same speed?

Thanks again for the wealth of information that you all bring...

It's not that you are doing less work while spinning versus mashing.....it's just that the burden has been intelligently and optimally allocated when the technique is refined....meaning better economy and effeciency. All else being equal...the more effecient cyclist can ride farther and faster...and will have more reserves to access at crucial moments....especially near the end when others are more depleted. Remember....we all spin along for miles upon miles. It is often(but not always) what happens at crucial moments near the end that can be the difference between finishing 2nd and 25th. It can be decided that quick! There are lots of complex things going on out of sight and out of mind happening with each riders physiology that determines how this all plays out....or at least plays a big role.

Yes..this is only one critical piece of the puzzle. I also believe in training for power ...and endurance etc. Those are other puzzle pieces....and no less important.