have yall seen this method? according to fixie riders in italy, you can secure a track cog without using a lockring...

https://204.73.203.34/fisso/eng/schpignone.htm

you're basically using the torque of the wheel to tighten the cog to the point where you don't need a lockring... it seems like this might be equivalent to the forces exerted when you backpedal, but i wonder if it would hold up with skidding, or tough use....

experiences? thoughts?

NO!!! if your riding brakeless then the italian method will get you killed.

Not only does the lockring not necessarily stay in place on a hard stop, but when it spins off, your chain derails and everything jams somewhere in your rear hub, chainstays, or cranks. At best you damage your bike seriously; at worst, you get thrown off the bike and you kiss asphalt (or a windshield). I wouldn't do it on a track, much less on the road. There are many people who ride track without a lockring, but that's a very different scene and even then I don't like the derailment risk. It's basically laziness not to use it, so why?

There seem to be a number of these folks who ride brakeless and keep posting bikes, so presumably they're not dying. Maybe gravity and rotational forces are different in Italy. Looking at the welds on the most recent rotafixa contribution would suggest so.

I would not consider riding brakeless without a lockring but i am somewhat robust around the waist. I think weight plays a significant role in whether this is a good/safe idea. When I install cogs for folks I really tighten them down hard with a foot and a half long chainwhip. I dont think most people out there have the strength in their legs to loosen the cog. The lockring is there as a safety mechanism. "Sideshow" from Minneapolis came to Toronto a few years back for the NACCC'S and rode...Won!... our scavenger hunt alleycat on a brakeless lockring less track bike...so it can be done safely. Mind you the guy weighed like 135 with a sweat on.

https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/f/paolo.htm
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/bellino.htm
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/g/bellino.htm
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2005/jan/bellino.htm
https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2005...oloBellino.htm

it seems as if the italian method won't get you killed, considering that this guy (and, by the sound of it, all his buddies) appears to be alive enough to ride those five bikes (even if only one at a time).

actually, i was looking for something a little more helpful than reactionary nonsense. like, perhaps, speculation about the physics of it all. or personal experience.

I've never ridden without a lockring but I have with a loose one. The cog slips, no matter how hard you crank it down. Then again, your mileage may vary depending on the quality of your cog, grease, hub threads and amount of torque you applied to the hub or to the bike when riding. At 48x16 with just resisting, the cog would slip after much tightening.

I've never tried it with my Phils so I can't say but I wouldn't run that risk anyway.

There is a chance that your cog may stay attached for a little while, but why risk it? Low end track stuff is so cheap these days, way cheaper than getting your teeth fixed if it does fail. If you are staking your saftey on a certain part of your bike, why set it up in the most ghetto way possible?

Why are so many people concerned with saving $9 on a lockring that will help to prevent death? Just get one...

I'm with you on this one, it just doesn't make since to me...but maybe some people want to save a few grams of weight, maybe they'll be quicker, maybe lockringless is the new brakeless? Somebody please explain!

i definitely think you should do it. don't listen to all of these babies. don't use brakes either. be sure to take pictures from the hospital and autograph it like a real super star too. trade pictures with your friends! start a new fad! hooray!!

try this: buy a lockring, put it on your bike, but don't tighten it down all the way (leave 1/2 to 1 thread exposed). The ride brakeless for a while when try to skid or push back hard enough, you'll feel the cog unwind a little bit, then it'll stop. Then you can feel your lockring actually saving your neck. *I learned this method accidentally on a quick and not-that-careful setup job*

Shaun Wallace, a long-time British Track pro who was a sprinter/kilo/miss-n-out/points race kind of guy (not an endurance trackie ok) and I met at T-Town once. He said not to use lockrings on the track. He said that as long as you torque the cog down enough it won't spin off during anything you do on the track. I followed his advice and found this to be true. In fact he said, the only time it will spin off at all is in the event of a crash, and he advocated no lockrings on track to save your knees and legs in the event of a crash. I rode the same wheel on the street a couple times, and I was fine, it didn't slip, but I was riding with a brake and not trying to skip/skid.

Conclusion: Track: no lockring
Road: lockring please

There was a long-ish thread about this on the FGG forum a few months ago. I think the gist of it was that the italian method applies an assload more force than a chainwhip ever could and as such it's probably not a totaly unsafe thing to be doing. I get the sense that for the Rotofixa peeps it's as much a philosophical thing - sort of like the ultra-basic brass pipe bars - as it is a practical consideration, and that's fair enough as far as I'm concerned. Pick your battles, you know?

m.

EDIT: I found the thread on FGG.

The technique on the "rotafixa" website is a good way to tighten a sprocket when you don't have a chain whip handy.

Now here's some physics: Applying sufficient back-pressure on the pedals will eventually unscrew the cog unless a lockring holds it in place. If the cog unscrews, any number of bad things can happen upto and including the destruction of you and/or your bike. Any further discussion of physics would involve estimating how much torque the cog sees in back-pressure braking senarios.

I suppose riding w/o a lockring is theoretically perfectly safe if you never apply back pressure on your pedals.

wow, harsh words from someone asking for advice. Most of those photos you can't tell if there is a lockring or not, and calling my reply 'reactionary nonsense' is a bit harsh. Why would you consider saving that measly few bucks instead of putting a lockring on?

Yes, it applies a lot more torgue, but it's still not enough to counteract the force you'll be putting on it when you skid. I'm a light guy at 140 and I've had close calls because of crapped out lockrings and the cogs slipping. The lockring threads on my sh*tty hub is stripped right now and i had it tightened with the italian method and some locktite and guess what? IT DOESN'T WORK!!! But don't take my word for it, it's all reactionary, so why don't you just try it and jump into traffic and see just how great the "italian" method is. Remember to post some photos of your mangles body. I was just trying to help out, so next time your asking for advice, post a disclaimer to all reactionary nonsense writers to stay away.

People are right some pissy this morning.

m.

"any luck riding without a lockring?"

Yes, all bad.
Lockrings are much cheaper than replacement hubs but if you can afford to go "commando" then you can afford to pay for life/medical insurance.

Enjoy

I used the "itallian" method to tighen on a cog this weekend. My chainwhip broke, so i tightened the cog on by hand. Then used this method to tighten the cog (I've done this before to loosen a cog). Well, I ended up with a stripped hub at the end of this.

I think the hub was about to go anyway. I did not cross thread the cog when I screwed it on. Now I have a nice Pro Max freewheel hub.

I havent died in 16 years. Empircism trumps theorism (at least in my book).

and oh, before trackbikes became the fad that it is in the last few years, this was the common method of going fixed.

how did you last death go? was that death 16 years ago your first? i've never died myself. i'm curious.

i think yall misunderstand. it's not about whether nor not the lockring is there. it's about the method of tightening on the cog (which, incidentally, might make the lockring moot--though don't get me wrong, i'm all about redundancy in machines) that i'm asking about. damn, some of yall on this board are snarky. what's up with that?

flythebike, thanks for some very worthwhile imput (compared to most of the others who've posted).

as for wangster, the reason why your response wasn't helpful to me is that it gave me an imperative without offering any reason or understanding. it wasn't helpful. your second post was more helpful.

and for the people who (sarcastically?) are waiting for me to die or get real banged up, notice that i never said i was doing this to my bike. i've got a lockring. i'm just curious about the setup.

look, on the internet, it's real easy to come across as an @sshole, cause you're not talking to people, you're talking to faceless words through a computer screen. but being an @sshole is still being an @sshole, and let's try to minimize it, hey?

You asked for thoughts and experiences, you got 'em. What more were you asking for without being clearer? You asked about skidding, tough use and people responded.

As for the thread doing its thing, it's a discussion, no one's aiming at you. Talk freely amongst each other - that's the point isn't it?

what's the "internet"?

"how did you last death go? was that death 16 years ago your first? i've never died myself. i'm curious."

The last one was pretty good; though I dont remember much being way back in the middle-ages and all. Back then I was much more reckless; single-speed horse, no reigns, no armor. I used the italian method of attaching my steeds' shoes (no nails, just pressed 'em on reaaaallllyyy tight. Seemed to work ok in the jousting grounds but i never really used it on the roads.

anyhow, 3 down 6 to go...