.... compared to modern frames for SS/FG builds?

I see a lot of folks here building up the older 10-speed road bikes. Do these older frames offer any type of performance advantage? Or is it all about the style and look? Something else?

Discuss.

Older high end frames and parts can be found fairly inexpensively. Cost is a big difference.

120mm rear dropout spacing and horizontal dropouts makes conversion to SSFG fairly simple and economical. However, they are not ideal as FG due to lower bottom brackets, and older frames use 27" wheels, which limits wheel and tire choices. As to performance, definitely not, as modern tig welded steel frames with larger diameter steel tubing are stiffer and lighter.

Some older frames have more relaxed geometry, which provides different ride and handling characteristics. It really depends on what you want the bike to behave like. I like the increased shock absorption and stability provided by slack angles and long stays, and don't mind forfeiting the lightning quick agility to get those qualities. Other people enjoy a bike that responds immediately to minor inputs. You can't have both so compromises must be made. Of course there are old bikes with aggressive geometry too.

Different tube sets will ride and respond differently as well.

Some people just enjoy the whole process of bringing an old bike back to life. Some of the C&V guys get a lot of pleasure from the challenge of the "Hunt" to find all the right bits and pieces to make the bike 100% period correct. I'd venture a guess that some of those guys enjoy building bikes as much as they do riding.

And, of course, many people just dig the aesthetics of old classics.

I think it depends on what kind of old "ten speed" you get though. There were bikes designed for touring, commuting, and then there were bikes for racing. And each manufacturer kinda did their own thing too.

An example of extreme weirdness would be the entry and mid level Schwinn 10 speeds from the 60s and 70s. Simple commuter bikes. They have unnecessarily and ridiculously high bottom brackets. Maybe it was overly cautious designing to reduce pedal strike. BB drop is like ~50mms. With the big wheels and tires those things came with, striking a pedal was rare.

For use on open public roads a frameset designed for road use, in particular one designed for road racing, will have lively handling, compliance over rough surfaces, predictable descending and sufficient stiffness for climbing and sprinting regardless of drivetrain flavor.

Well made high quality lightweight steel framesets with horizontal dropouts make excellent FG conversions, in particular British framesets of Reynolds 531 which were designed for use by club cyclists of the era who regularly competed in time trials riding a FG. Pic of the inestimable Beryl Burton attached.

"Track" style frames ridden on indifferent surfaces at pace for long miles in my opinion ride like lumber wagons, are twitchy on high speed descents and nervous in cross winds. None of those effects on a well fitted road machine, FG or not.

-Bandera

I am on the hunt for an old one as we speak. I am enjoying the hunt and I will enjoy the build!

I have used Japanese (and similar) early to mid-80s mid-quality road frames for winter,rain,city fix gears forever. Pluses - horizontal dropouts with screw adjusts, fender eyes, often designed for 27" wheels and accommodate large tires and fenders easily. All threads and dimensions are English sized, standard metric threads and traditional tube diameters. Makes moving parts from one frame to the next easy. (Often done over one weekend to get my freshly crashed commuter up and running for Monday. Every part will go from a Japanese built Schwinn to a Sekine. No trips to the bike shop to make it work. This was one example. That commuter went on to become a Miyata 610 and is now an '83 Trek 420.)

Another plus is that those bikes are all lugged and brazed. If you get one taht is really sweet (ie, fits the way you ride and does what you want perfectly) and something happens to the frame, getting a repair that will leave it good as new is not hard. My current Trek is one of those bikes. Best winter/rain/city bike I have ever owned in almost every way. It is an older steel Trek and the failure they were known for happened. (Cracked seat tube caps across the deeply stamped "TREK".) An afternoon's work that included new WB bosses and a powdercoat paint job and the bike is ready for another 20 years.)

BB height on all these bikes was reasonable for a road fix gear. Usually around 10 5/8". I pushed it up a little on my custom road fix gear but not a lot. Yes, I do have to back off on some fun wild descents, but that may well have saved me from a crash or two at real speed had I been riding a bike that "could". (I don't think BB drop. My mindset has always been as a rider and I think height. 10 5/8" is the (geared) road racing "classic norm". 10 3/4" is racing. My Fuji was almost 11". I could pedal through almost anything with 175s and road quill pedals and when I did hit, I was laid over far enough that it was a major heartrate jump. Jessica, my custom fixie, is 10 3/4" with say 24c tires. With Shimano 600 semi-platforms, the pedal clearance is decent.)

And of course, there is the little money think. A new frame would cost me what, $600 for a TIG welded job that might or might not have clearance for big tires and fenders. My 5 frames for my ongoing commuter have cost me ($80 + free (had to pay for a fork, $25?) + $70 + $115 + $70 = $360. This was years ago, so say X2 for inflation. $720. Over 40 years and 80,000 miles? I currently have: a frame that should go the next 20 years and 40,000 miles easily. Now how does that $600 TIG job stack up? And how does it stack up after the next crash?

Yes, my good fix gear doesn't measure up here at all. Several thousand for just the frame. 25c and fenders are pretty close to max. But it is far ,far from a winter/rain/city fixie. Rain yes. It has seen touches of the others. But its focus is as a pure '80s road racer in another world where freewheels were never invented and at that, it is an "A" bike, s good as they come.

Ben

There is a decent supply of 27 inch tires but clearly more limited than 700c.

700c to 27 inch conversion is as easy as pie. Worst case scenario is you'll have to find brakes with a bit longer reach.

I'm dubious that the "performance" difference between a modern tig welded frame and an older steel frame is a large one. My guess is that this is primarily placebo. That said, everything else being equal, I'd take a threadless system over a threaded one but not, in my book, a huge difference.

__________________

Bandara, you emphasized your post with a great photo! Here is a road fix gear at its best and purist, ridden by one of the best who ever straddled one, Beryl Burton.

Ben

Mafac Racer calipers. Easy and cheap. Find a pair without too much play in the pivots, pay your $20 buck, put on Cool Stop pads and go ride on one of the best brakes ever made. (They work well , in fact better than many new brakes ever do, after a LOT of play has developed.)

I am NOT a fan of threadless heasets. They make the most basic fit adjustment harder to do - raise and lower the HBs to accommodate conditioning changes, injuries, different rides, etc. Yes, you do have to use grease on quills. Marine hub grease works so well, lasts so long and is so cheap that there is little reason to say that is a disadvantage. Changing HBs is a lot harder, but how often do you do that? (I have one bike where I run two sets of HBs/stems/ levers and calipers. Changing them out take 5 minutes and completely transforms the bike. And I never have to do a headset bearing check.)

Ben

It is not "placebo" when the differences are measurable. My newer tig welded steel frames are measurably lighter and stiffer than my vintage lugged steel frames. My 40 year old Schwinn Paramount P14 track bike feels like a wet noodle in comparison with my two Soma Rush frames or my newest Wraith frame. Part of this can be attributed to the use of larger diameter frame tubing on newer steel frames. Even my el cheapo Chinese chromo frames have larger diameter downtubes than the old Paramount.

Weight is measurable. How you feel about the stiffness of a frame is not.

Frame stiffness can be tested by placed the front wheel against a wall and standing on the forward pedal with the cranks in the horizontal position. Depending on the frame stiffness, the bottom bracket will move laterally due to out of plane bending caused by torsion. This can be observed and measured.

Honestly I'm puzzled that you think that part of the difference about bikes doesn't come down to how you feel about it. But if you think this is entirely measurable and scientific, more power to you and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Well, I'm an engineer, not an artist, so my feelings do not affect factual decision making.

And no doubt aesthetics and judgment do not play a role in how we feel about machines . . .

Sure they do, they just have nothing to do with cold hard facts. I happen to own a lot of very beautiful vintage bikes with lugged frames and quill stems. They work fine and I love to ride them, but they are technically inferior to modern bikes with tig welded frames and threadless stems. Same goes for friction downtube shifters .vs. indexed brifters. My newest geared bike is a full carbon frame with Ultegra 11-speed, and it is very enjoyable to ride because it works. While I'm riding it I'm oblivious to how ugly it looks and when I get home I quickly hang it up and don't spend time looking at it. I do love to look at my old vintage bikes, but don't ride them much.

Emotion and logic are not mutually exclusive, but rather two different aspects of human existence.

I had one major reason for choosing to convert an old 12-speed rather than buy a modern FG frame: They're cheap, and so am I.

I only paid $25 for a beater Takara. You can't get a decent new frame for eight times that amount.

So I easily converted it and was able to start riding right away. I plan to upgrade components along the way as I learn more about what I like and keep an eye out for good deals. Eventually, I can upgrade the frame too and just move all the parts over.

I don't pretend for a second that my bike's performance matches that of even a low-end modern frame. The bare frame and fork weigh about eight pounds (easily twice the weight of a good modern track frame). It feels flexible even against my noodly little chicken legs. But I'm not out trying to win races; I ride for fun and fitness. And I've discovered an advantage to using the old beater. I can throw it in the bed of my pickup or lean it against a pole and never cringe at the thought of scratching or dinging the frame.

Other reasons mentioned above played into my choice: correct hub spacing and horizontal dropouts. Besides those features, it all came down to price.

Cheap, cool, built extremely well.

Who can deny the style points of an old Bianchi Pista or a Pinarello track frame. They're just damn cool at the end of the day.

Availability, cheapness, and horizontal dropouts were the main attractions. Now that SS/FG bikes are mainstream again, the only reason to convert an old road bike is for style points.

in the year 2016 you get ZERO STYLE POINTS for riding a conversion.

What are the advantages of steel frame road bikes? I own a carbon frame road bike now, but I would like to buy a second road bike. I don't want to spend more that $500.00. I would like to buy a used bike and fix it up. My top road bike picks so far are: 87-89 Schwinn Super Sport and 87-89 Centurion Ironman Master Dave Scott. What are your thoughts?

Pretty much. Not worth doing unless you have a frame and parts ready to go, you know exactly what you want, or you're just mixing it up a bit on a bike you already ride.

Like clothing, hair styles, and tattoos... your ride can project an image of yourself. No one likes to think of themselves as an off-the-shelf personality... even though most people really are. But some people like to go the extra mile to show themselves as unique.

No one would ever spot my run-of-the-mill recently made stock Trek in front of a coffee shop and say... "hey Dave is there". But... maybe if I normally rode my C&V bright yellow trek (with blue trimmings)... people might identify the bike to me.