any takers...?

I am currently converting an Astra Tour De France from 1968, and have run into the same problem. The advice I was given from various usenet sources is as follows:

Get the Phil Wood BB Cups (30-40 bucks). Get a Shimano BB-UN73 (it is the NEW AND IMPROVED UN72). Here's a URL for the UN73: http://www.supergo.com/profile.cfm?L...xt=&referpage=

This option will cost 60-75 bucks, but I think it is well worth it when compared to the other more pricy options.... Then again I am new to this stuff, and I might be totally wrong. If I am, I am sure someone here will let me know. ;)

I'm not so sure about that. I think the UN-72 has a press fit fixed thread side that can be removed, which is why you can use the Phil mounting rings. With the UN73, the fixed drive side thread is part of the BB body, can't be removed, so won't work, if I'm not mistaken. I just ordered the UN72 from Nashbar, they have them in size 70...

Poguemahone- Yeah, that fixed cup was a Stronglight, why, do you want it? Still don't see how a Japanese French thread BB is any more authentic than with an Italian threaded shell. I mean, if a Frenchman needed a heart transplant, I don't think he'ld care if it came from a Japanese or an Italian, as long as it was compatible. He might draw the line at an English one, though... :) BTW, do you think I shpould "fix" that Gitane? My options are pretty wide open as it needs wheels, BB, and crank. Nothing I do is gonna please the classics folks, I'm afraid, since I just want to ride it, not restore it, although I wouldn't mind getting one those Stronglight cranks.

that's my understanding as well. i'm pretty sure the only one you can use with the phil rings is the 72. i'm thinking i should go with the size 70, correct? it also comes in 73. but i need 70, right?

oh.. any suggestions for the axle length? i'm seeing 110,113,115,118,122.. but the easiest to get looks like 113 or 115. suggestions?

Don't forget that to install the Phil cups you need Phil tools! (2 of them).

I really think that the TA Cups and a 5 spindle is your best bet. Most widely available option as well. You should be able to get your chainline perfect.

You should have the option of using almost any cranks with this option as well.

oh, my paps has phil tools, so i'm not sweating that.

i have two hesitations... i'm probably going to be riding this in pretty bad weather, and often. so, i don't want to have to clean, grease, and re-pack bearings every 10 seconds. i'd rather ride with a sealed cartridge i can just toss in a couple years. maybe that's lazy though... and maybe that takes some of the fun out of the peugeot, huh?

my other hesitation is ... i dunno. i forgot. you've got me flustered now ;) -- oh yeah... you don't think i'll have spindle fit issues with that kind of set-up at all? i was warned about that. well, apparently not if you're recommending it :D or apparently there's something about the fit being a little funny - the bracket sticking out a little or something? is that real bad?

so, if i ordered some TA brackets (assuming i don't buy yours), which of these 5 spindles on the harris site do you think would be best for my purpose? http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/botto...ts.html#sugino i only know the basics, so i'll appreciate more guidance here... keep convincing me. it's great info. :)

"Nothing I do is gonna please the classics folks, I'm afraid, since I just want to ride it, not restore it, although I wouldn't mind getting one those Stronglight cranks."

I am one of the classics folks. I just wander over here when you guys start playing with dangerous French bikes. Look, it's your bike, fix it up and ride it. Or fixie it up and ride it. I've done it-- just don't cut off the derailleur hanger or anything like that. The only really bad thing is not to ride it. The geometry on most older Frenchies is more relaxed, they make nice urban bikes. The french kept frames pretty light, so even the low end can make a nice light fixie.

I'm not certain on the TA cups and spindles. I've had compatability issues with spindles and cranks from different manufacturers, esp. with mixing Euro and Japanese stuff. TA made some class stuff back in the day, tho. I've been using a pile of Zeus cups for a while-- thin walled, nice Campy knockoffs. Don't work w/ Japanese spindles; on the low end, I go with Sakae or Sugino cups.

Muccapazza is right about the UN72; you could remove the mounting rings from both sides, and then replace w/ the phil rings. I think all newer Shimano units have the drive side ring of the unit as part of the body now. You can't get 'em off, so the fix doesn't work. I talked to a mechanic a while back who swore you could just jam a UN72 into your regular cups and use the cups as mounting rings. Can't testify as to the efficacy of this method.

I keep meaning to try the YSTs, never get around to it. Maybe this fall.

I have a spare used Stronglight adjustable cup, I think. If you want broader options, you can do your Italian thingie, just make sure you have a good and competent shop.

ok...so...show of hands...who thinks that a sugino "5" spindle will work with TA cups?

thanks--

weedeater, it depends on the thickness of the cups. Most Euro cups were thin walled and most Japanese ones were thick walled. However, some Euro manufacturers also made thick walled cups (notably Campagnolo, which made both thin and thick walled cups). Because of the thinner walls, the races on the Euro spindles were further apart, so you can't use a standard Japnese spindle. However, because Italian bottom bracket shells are slightly wider (70mm vs. 68 for French/English) the Japanese spindles for Italian thread BBs will work in an older Euro bike with French or English cups.

Now that that's all clear as mud, here's what I'd do. The important variable here is the thickness of the cup. Since Harris is quite familiar with old Frenchies and sells these cups, I would email them and ask if they are thin or thick walled. Thin= "5". Thick="3".
Ask also about compatability with JIS (Japanese) type cranks for the TA spindles. Someone there has likely run into exactly these issues and can honestly answer your question. Not knowing the properties of the TA cup, I cannot.

Here's another option, but the guy is in the midst of a move from the Netherlands to Cali. I've dealt with him before; he can be slow to ship but he is honest and you will get your stuff. Plus he really knows his stuff. Currently, he's listing both thin and thick walled Campy french threaded BB cups, at about 30$ for a set:

https://secure.netonline.nl/ssl/renaissance-cycles/

Forgot about him in the midst of drinking last night, sorry. I'd wait until he is settled to order anything form him, tho. I suspect the move will take longer than he anticipates.

I've just put a Specialized 7NL spindle into TA cups with no problems on a PR10. Moved the chainline in some 10mm which will allow me to stick a track wheel in as a fixed when the lottery pays out!

The A & C lengths as Sheldon's page are 30 & 31.5, a nice "flip" option if required.

Good luck

You are right about the UN73! I am glad you guys are here to keep me from making mistakes. Anyhow, check out my Astra Tour-De-France. It is a 1968! Its gonna be a long hard project. You gotta love the oldie bars and seat!

http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0118.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0120.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0121.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0122.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0123.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0125.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0126.jpg
http://www.yesalbum.com/v001/protagh...a/000_0127.jpg

ok.. so i just had a pal encourage me to go phil wood all the way. his reasoning:

A) it's not as expensive as i think (especially since i have access to discounts/near-wholesale prices ;) )

B) it makes for a super ride - he loves his phil set up oh his crappy bike. it's like butter. and it's my psyched up bike project so why not.

C) it makes all these bb problems way easier to address and guarantees no compat issues, adn opens up my crank options like sick huge.

it was like a breath of fresh air. good reasons to go the phil way?, or just a cop out to avoid a more engaging alternative? what do you think...

frankly if you can afford (or perhaps the right word is "justify") it, go for it.

my goal is to spend as little as possible while getting the max compatibility, so, assuming it works, using a Sugino "5" spindle with the existing cups (or perhaps with some TA cups I just got on eBay for $5) will be the best deal for me. (i hope it works!)

if i was converting a px-10 or a high end gitane, a phil bb would make more sense to me. this is an old UO-8 that has been stripped of everything, so i'm essentially replacing all but the frame and fork, and trying to keep costs as low as possible (or else i'd just start over with a $300 cheap conversion or something...!)

haha... i think i just got dissed! ;)

I'd say go Phil if you can get it at wholesale. Then find another bike to build. If It's better and French, tear off the Phil from the UE and then rebuild the UE. Believe me, most of the 531 framed french bikes I've had the pleasure of riding are very nice. I'm not going to knock the UE/UO8; it's one of the great general transport frames of all time. Also, if you are getting Phil cheap, buy a set of hubs while you're at it and have nice wheels built.

I still favour you doing a complete rebuild, ground up, on a bike. It'll make you learn about everything on a bike... and a French bike will force your mind to be nimble and get around problems. All of you, I'll answer PMs on older French bikes to the best of my knowledge and ability, and I'd love to see the finished builds. It can be done. Here are my 73 UO8 and 73 PX10e fixies, both pretty much rebuilt from the frame up, to prove it can be done:

I am one of the guys who is 'fixing' a french frame...

1. UN72 option, if my bb cups are in good shape, do I have to replace them with the Phil Wood cups in order to fit the UN72 in there? Is the UN72 only going to work with Deore cranks? I think I read that somewhere but I am probably wrong.

2. Phil Wood BB / Cups option. This setup would work with tons more cranks than the UN72 right?

i'm pretty sure you have to do the phil cups to get a solid fit. i've heard tell of the UN72 possibly being crammed in there with the old cups... but that doesn't make much sense to me. the phil cups are a totally different/contemporary kind of design. i don't know about exclusivity with deore cranks. anybody else?


you could use like any crank ever from any forever ever. not really, but it's like, woah. lots. i think if it's worth it to you to have a smooth feeling ride, and it's fun for you... go phil if you can. no reason to decide ahead of time the bike isn't worth the expense. it is if you decide it is, you know...

I recommend looking around on loosescews.com. All you need is french cups, balls, and the proper length spindle.

They have french cups, balls, and spindles .

Other places may have a better selection for different length spindles.

The existing cups and ball bearings are in great shape. The spindle is for an old cottered crank. Can I use a newer spindle that will accept more modern cranks? If I go the spindle and bearings route, how adjustable is the chainline via the bottom bracket?

I would like to keep this fix simple. If using the existing cups, bearings, and a new spindle is possible, I would be STOKED. I like the old non-cartridge system, and have no problem repacking bearings every so often. I am just concerned with crank selection. If a bearing/spindle setup will take more modern cranks, that is what I want to do. Possible?

I am in the same boat. I believe that if you use a Sugino "5" spindle it will fit your cups and bearings. This is a longer spindle, 70mm, meant for Italian BBs, but since the old french cups are thin-walled, it works in those too. Harris Cyclery says this could work, and so do l'experts who have shared their wisdom on this thread. It's a kludge, but if it works, it's a good kludge! And invisible to boot.

I believe that the sugino spindles are standard square-taper spindles that will work with most modern cranks. It's worth a call to Harris to find out, which I have been meaning to do but haven't yet.

vive les differences,

patrick

1. Whats a kludge (I know its some slang term you all are using)?

2. On Harris Cyclery's parts page, I see a few 'Sugino 5" spindles (5J-B, 5S-B, 5U-B). How do I determine what length to use? I measured the original spindle, and it was 135mm long. The spindles on the Harris page only go up to 126.5mm. Is my original longer because it used cottered cranks?

3. The guy at my LBS told me that I needed a 115mm UN72 crank, but this was before I pulled the original spindle and measured it. Does this mean I should get the 119mm 'Sugino 5'? Why is my original spindle so long compared to the one he suggested to replace it with? Again, does that have to do with the fact that I had cottered cranks on this thing before?



Again, I am a new to bike restoration, but I love it. I have spend hours cleaning and the old frame, nuts and bolts, etc. I have already completed one restoration (1970 Schwinn Suburban, now fixed gear), and the satisfaction of riding the finished product is worth all the problems I faced to get there. This forum is a resource that I would be lost without. Thanks!

prota- a "kludge" is a way of making something work using parts that weren't intended to be used in that particular way. (This is my interpretation of the term.) For instance, using a road crank and chainring bolt spacers to make a fixed gear chainline work. Or sticking a Japanese-made spindle, intended for Italian bottom brackets, into an old set of French cups.

The question about spindle length is one I have too. I dunno the answer, but I suspect your length will be different since the spindle is designed for a wider BB shell (and you're effectively running a wider BB shell). I would call Harris and ask them what they think (on a weekday when they're not busy). Also, if you haven't already, find their page on French bikes and print it out and read it many times.

I think (hope) that once you get a BB together, chainline can be further adjusted by using BB spacer rings, chainring placement, and spacers in the rear axle.

i have yet to successfully restore an entire bike, but I, too, am really enjoying learning about all the hows and whys of my lovely and dependable machines, and ditto what you said about the importance of this board--it's a much needed resource for us newbie wrenches. Thanks all.

hey wait--protaghiro--are you the owner of Brown Thunder?

ps yeah, the original spindle is longer cuz of the cottered cranks. What a piece of metal those things are!

>> hey wait--protaghiro--are you the owner of Brown Thunder?

Brown Thunder and I just got back from a ride. She was my first, but she wont be my last. Every time I ride that gigantic brown Schwinn, people ask me about the bike. They love it, and so do I. This Astra French bike frame is going to be setup for flatter, longer fixed gear rides.