ok, i thought that was you. you're certainly up for a challenge when it comes to fixed conversions! good on ya, mate. :beer:

The Schwinn was a bike that i rode as a 10 speed cruiser for the past 4 years. It was my saturday morning bike. When it came time to overhaul it, I decided to make it fixed.

That project made me confident enough to fix up my dad's old French Astra. I figure if I could get a one piece crank fixed gear to work, how hard could this French threading issue be to fix?

french stuff is pretty easy, when it comes down to it. sanding down 22.2 stems to 22.0 is a true act of love (for the french bike, not so much the stem).

ok, so i called Harris after rereading their French parts pages over and over.

According to their web site, the Sugino "5" spindles _might_ work with regular (thin-walled) French cups. The guy I talked to, Jay, who was very nice and helpful, hadn't heard about that. But he said that there was an awful lot of stuff on that web site and that he generally heard about these things from customers. Ha!

What Jay did say was that these spindles for cup-and-cone BBs are becoming rapidly extinct, and that their stock is diminished. He said that the web page that listed the spindles is out of date and that they dont have all of those in stock. So, if you plan to order one (some), i'd order by phone so you can check your stock.

He did say that TA was still making their BB spindles, for whatever reason, so they do have all those in stock. He also said that the TA spindles would fit most standard, modern cranksets no problem. Chainline is another issue, but I am thinking that is something best worked out with chainring bolts and spacers.

Anyway, I think I may try to use one of the Sugino spindles, if they have them in stock, and if not I will bite the bullet, or the spindle, and get a TA. I guess if the 70mm spindle doesnt work I can just hang onto it and find an Italian bike to fix up.

Can you adjust chainline with the old style cup / bearing / spindle setup we are discussing here?

yeah, by adjusting the placement of the chainring on the spider, and you can space it in or out with little spacers in between the spider and the ring too.

A couple of small things, just to make sure some points are clear. Below I have some photos of a Phil/ UN72 conversion job. In the first photo, from the top, we have a Phil bottom bracket with mounting rings, a Shimano UN52 bottom bracket, and a shimano UN72 bottom bracket with the original shimano mounting rings off to the side, and a set of French threaded phil mounting rings below. What makes the UN72 unique is that you can knock off both mounting rings, and then replace them with the Phil rings (see second photo). You cannot take the drive side ring of the UN52, or any other Shimano unit I am aware of; this is why the UN72 is key to this operation. You want a 68mm width UN72 for this operation.

Once you have taken off the original rings, insert one of the Phil rings into the bottom bracket shell. You must have one of the Phil wood tools for this; preferably two. Screw in the first ring, then insert the UN72; screw in the second ring on the opposite side until the UN72 is securely held in the BB shell, and then adjust. Once you've got it right, remove the drive side ring, spread a small amount of loctite on it, and re-fasten. You want to do this because French bottom brackets are not reverse threaded on the drive side, and can be prone to coming loose. The last photo shows the UN72/Phil combo inserted into the bottom bracket of a 74 Peugeot UO8. Instalation time is under five minutes.

Tip: adjust your chainline before loctiting the drive side. Why? You can adjust your chainline some by re-adjusting the Phil cups and thus moving the spindles more to one side or the other. This will entail putting on and then removing the crank to make adjustments on the BB. This gives you some small fudge room in selecting crank spindle lengths.

The length spindle you need is dependent on the type of crank you use. On my PX fixie, I'm using a 120mm stronglight spindle with Stronglight cranks; the spindle length would be far to long for most modern cranks, but gives me a straight line in conjunction with the SL cranks.

Chainline can also be adjusted by re-dishing the rear wheel, if needed.

Yes I know the UN72 unit look grungy. It was in my basement, which got flooded by Gaston last year. First one I found when setting up this little demo.

I understand it is based on crank choice, does the crank tell you what size spindle to use?
How does the crank determine this for you? Where is this compatibility listed? I dont want to buy a spindle (or a UN72 if I go that route) that I wont be able to use.

pogue, all the info you gave is great. since i know you had success with this way of set up i might just go with it, and maybe later on i'll indulge on a full phil unit.

with regards to that UN72... can i use a 70?... all i'm finding anywhere is 70s and 73s.

check out www.nashbar.com for un72

What type of crank/pedals are you going to use? What can you use with this type of spindle?

According to Harris guy, these spindles (the Sugino "5" or the TA) will work with most cranks. I am planning on buying a new Sugino RD from Harris. He said that'd work fine. So it sounds like they will work with any crank that fits a square-taper spindle. (I am also thinking about using that Bulletproof crankset available from Harris, since it'll be considerably cheaper. This bike is a see-how-cheap-you-can-do-it bike.)

Note, there are some Sakae spindles with suspiciously similar numbering on eBay. 5s and 3s and stuff. From what Pogue has said these are essentially the same thing, oui?

also check loosescrews.com and biketoolsetc.com, and peter white cycles

" understand it is based on crank choice, does the crank tell you what size spindle to use?
How does the crank determine this for you? Where is this compatibility listed? I dont want to buy a spindle (or a UN72 if I go that route) that I wont be able to use."

I am going to refer you to people smarter and more experienced than I:

http://sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

Also, if you can, check Sutherland's Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics. There's some helpful pages on crank and spindle compatability that are very handy when mixing and matching older parts. I use an older edition (1985) which is very helpfull for fixing older bikes. Since most of the bikes I work on are pre-1985, this is a (huge) help. If you plan to work on older bikes a fair amount, this book is invaluable anyway. I can xerox the relevant pages and mail them to you if needed.

"with regards to that UN72... can i use a 70?... all i'm finding anywhere is 70s and 73s."

This is an interesting question, and the answer is I think so. I'm not certain, which is why I hedge a bit and recommend a 68. I know that works. However:

1) The Phil Unit is acually wider in the body that the shimano unit (61mm versus 57mm). This would suggest you have more room to insert a wider UN72 unit.

2) If indeed they are wider. I think shimano may have used the exact same unit and simply manufactured different cups, depending on if the BB was intended for a Mountain bike (73) or Italian thread (70) or standard thread (68). Once you knock off the cups, they (may be) are the same. I think I may buy a 70mm unit, knock off the cups, and do some measurements. This is hypothesis on my part, and requires some empirical testing.

3) At most, the diff is 2mm (assumes you use an Italian); you should be able to install it, with perhaps some of the mounting ring threads showing, but not much. In the above example, the threads of the mounting rings were completely into the BB shell.

I'd rather hedge than offer you bad info; thus the 68mm recommendation.

Pogue, you le monsieur. If ever je suis ici aussi, i'm gonna buy you a beer. Ditto shants. YOu guys are a huge help. thanks.

I was looking at those cranks on Harris, and it says that you need to use a 107mm BB to get the chainring lined up with a track hub. are you going to redish a wheel to make this work? can the chainline be right with a 119mm sugino 5 series spindle? how you gonna deal with this?

yeah, i asked about this. he said that they were sending out most of their RDs with 110mm spindles. I don't understand the whole spindlelength thing, though I will peruse that astounding resource that Pogue just gave up (the Sheldon database).

ways to deal:
--well, I might get a 111mm TA spindle instead. Agh.
--also, gonna fiddle a lot with the chainring placement. for that matter, the Bulletproof looks like it might behave a little better in this regard. so I might go that route.

Newer cranks generally like shorter BB spindles. However, you can often flip an older spindle, so you reverse the drive side and the non-drive side, thus (assuming the spindle is assymetrical, as most but not all are), you can move the crank in closer to the frame.

And all the extra spindles you (I) amass will be good for striking the dinner bell round the old homestead :)

yeah... i'm pitching in for a round. this has been an awesome thread. in keeping with the french theme, i vote for a bottle of champagne, or remy martin.

"Pogue, you le monsieur. If ever je suis ici aussi, i'm gonna buy you a beer. Ditto shants. YOu guys are a huge help. thanks."

Well, I'd enjoy going to Oaktown for a beer, go see the East Bay Vivarium, maybe hunt for Dominic Behan records at that ridiculous record store in Berkley, but for now I'm in Richmond (the real one, not the fake one near you).

However, I don't mind answering the questions to the best of my ability. I love these rides and fixing them up; it's going on 25 plus years of riding French bikes now. In that time I have been forced to gain a modicum of knowledge. And this is probably, short of Classic and Vintage, the best and friendliest of the boards, so I don't mind posting here.

Not all my fixes work every time, and in the past I've had some interesting struggles with Frenchies, notably think's bike, which caused me much pondering and consideration. Each new build teaches me something, though.

Now, I just stole a French Headset on ebay, and I'm feeling old and cranky, so I'm going to sleep. I'll check in on the morrow and see if I can offer any help at all.

just FYI on sweet ass french headsets, you can get the stronglight a9 (needle bearings, really smooth) for $35 shipped from www.xxcycle.com. it's the best french headset available in my opinion. if you use any non-french threaded headset, you'll need to replace your fork.

EDIT: just saw that weedeater mentioned this above, but it's worth repeating.

this has been the most active and helpful thread of my fixed gear career, however, my career has only been a month long! we must keep it going until our bikes are all done. vive la resistance!

"if you use any non-french threaded headset, you'll need to replace your fork."

Another option: if only the bottom races in a french headset are pitted, replace the bottom half of the headset with an English one. The headset cups are the same size, and the fork crown race is just slightly larger on a French fork. Sometimes the English crown race will fit on a french fork, and sometimes you need to take just a little bit off the fork's crown. This little trick can help you keep your fork original, if so desired.

The A9s are nice, I run them on two bikes (oddly, neither one French threaded). Very durable roller bearing headset. In general, the Stronglight stuff is pretty close to bombproof.

OK Poguemahone, now we're onto headsets and I have a question. The headset on my UO8 is shot, top and bottom, and needs to be replaced. All the literature I have read says that french forks don't have a little grooved keyway, and that instead, they have a flat spot on the fork that makes the locknut and washer stay in one place. However, my fork has a little groove--a slot, actually--and no flat spot.

I'm assuming the headset you snagged was that lovely NOS one that Fineties was selling. I was tempted by that but the seller was clear about the flat-spot vs slotted thing, and I once again removed the headset and checked, yep, I've got a slot. DOes this make any sense or am I just misunderstanding the terms?

and in light of that, what do you think of this headset?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
It has a little tabbed lockwasher, similar to the one I now have, so I am hoping it will work as a replacement.

thanks, and a fresh Leffe Brune all 'round for my copains

--pdb