weedeater, it does make sense. The UO8s came standard with a headset made by I don't know who (Nervar?). These are incredibly durable headsets, although given the forces on the headset, they do wear out. And yes, they had a grooved keyway. They also had a cool little adjustment system-- there is a small peg atop the top screw-on bearing race, which you fit into one of a series of small holes on the lockwasher. This helped keep the headset from going out of adjustment. I've bought a couple of these Headsets NOS off ebay at reasonable prices in the past. Usually they are advertised as "Peugeot" headsets.

Most higher end french bikes came with a Stonglight style headset, with a serrated locknet that fit onto the screw on race. These headsets used the flat spot on the fork. Again, these headsets retain their adjustment extremely well. The headset in finities offering is in this second style.

One point when considering headsets is the fork crown race. Most headsets nowadays use the Campy standard (30.2 cups, 25.4 crown race). Older French bikes used a slightly different standard in the crown race (30.2 cups, 25.5 crown race). Later French threaded headsets used the Campy standard. In practice, this can be a small problem: you want the crown race on fairly tight, but on occasion, newer French (campy standard) HS crown races won't fit on older French forks. This requires either very judicious use of a file or going to a shop and having them file the fork crown down with the proper tool. You face the same problem with some older Italian rides as well; not all of them used the Campy standard. And sometimes you can fit a campy standard onto an older French fork no problem.

In practice, I've found this is not often a problem, but it does arise. It can be easily overcome. A good set of veneer calipers is invaluable here for diagnosis of the problem. The headset you have found on ebay is probably a good choice for UO replacement.

mine is the same way. actually, i don't need to replace a thing except the bearing. but the whole thing is a charming piece.

thanks again for all the info. i think i will get that headset on ebay. and good info about the crown races.

hear ye, o seekers of french bottom brackets:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

looks like NOS. i don't think I need this (i hope not!) thus I am telling you about it here. Cool, yeah?

Tres bien. But 121 is longer than I want. Anybody else? I'll be interested to see what it goes for.

Christ almighty. Now I think my Astra-Tour de France has SWISS threading. I will know as soon as I get this right cup un-stuck. It wont turn left or right at the moment; I am using liquid wrench to loosen it up.

Will the UN72 / Phil Cups solution work with my Swiss setup (if it is indeed Swiss)?

I am really starting to hate European countries!

Dunno if the UN72/Phil thing will work, but Harris has Swiss cups

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/french-cranks.html#tabb

for a pretty penny.

are you sure they're Swiss, or are they just on there really tight?

I was just at my LBS and was talking about my Peugeot conversion. the guy said if I had cups and a crankset, I could bring the whole mess down and dig through their box of used spindles. He seemed to think that we could find something that would work. I am willing to try it as soon as I get a crankset. Makes more sense than buying a spindle and having no idea whether it will work or not.

He seemed sort of intrigued and repulsed at the same time. Good to get familiar with an LBS for things like this, it seems...at least until I have boxes of used spindles around the house, that is.

also i should post this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

it's a headset that comes with a free frame attached. Nice lugs! Just so you know how deep in it I am, I am considering buying this in order to get a working headset.

"Will the UN72 / Phil Cups solution work with my Swiss setup?"

I do believe Phil makes Swiss rings. They might be a bit harder to find, but they exist. If that doesn't work, drop me a PM. I'll do two things:
1) I'll attempt to retap one of the junker Swiss frames in the basement to English (I've got at least three frames I could do this on, and keep meaning to try it out). I've heard this can be done, but I'm dubious. Then I'll let you know the results. This may take me a couple weeks.
2) I'll hunt around for a Swiss fixed cup. I know I have at least a couple of them. They're not the easiest thing to find, even on ebuy.

You can tell if the BB is Swiss-- if it is reverse threaded in the fixed cup, but 35x1, it is Swiss.

Swiss threading made a bit more sense-- the reverse threading on the fixed cup means that it wouldn't work loose. In practice, this is only a problem if you don't install a French cup tightly enough. Many manufacturers really cranked down the fixed cups and they can be hard to remove without a proper tool (the Var 30 fixed cup tool). Fortunately for the home mechanic, there is this little fix, courtesty of the estimable Mr. Brown:

http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

Keep in mind the fixed cup may be on very tight. They can be hard to remove, even with a Var 30 or Mr. Brown's nut and bolts method above (tip: use a long wrench for leverage) Look inside the BB shell and see if you can ascertain the direction of the fixed cup threading; often there will be a few rows of threading left and it is easily determined. A small flashlight can be a big help here. Also something long and thin you can run in the threading grooves.

Swiss threading is not unheard of on French bikes. However, in my experience it is largely limited to Motobecanes and some Peugeots around 1980. I would not say my experience is all-inclusive, however.

Also, if you know the manufacturer of your bottom bracket cups, there may be clues on the BB cup that indicate Swiss or French threading. Again, Sutherland's handbook for bicycle mechanics contains a reasonable comprehensive list of these visual clues.

What does 35x1 mean?



This bike is an Astra. According to Sheldon Brown's site, Astras were made by Motobecane for a US distributor named Beacon. No info on Beacon anywhere on the net.

I have assembled one of the homemade devices Sheldon recommends, and am going to let the Liquid Wrench work its way in before I attempt to remove the cup.

35x1 is the size of the bottom bracket threads on French bikes (and swiss, as well.). 35mm is the outside diameter of the cups, and 1mm is the pitch of the threads.

English is 1.37"x 24TPI (threads per inch).

Try to ascertain the threading before removing the cup, it'll save you some sweat.

I measured the cups awhile ago, I thought it was 36mm, but it could be 35mm I guess. Concerning the threading, I cant really tell which way it is yet. I tried to use the 'Sheldon Tool' last night, but I somehow bought a nut that was too big for the 5/8" bolt. I will give it another try with the smaller nut today.

ARG, this pesky cup is the last piece on the bike that I have to remove. Its like having a huge stain on a new white shirt! I will triumph over ye, evil fixed cup of doom!

this is the type of headset i have however i noticed one thing when i took it all apart to clean it - instead of having two bearing retainers, it only had one bearing retainer on the top portion of the headset, and in the bottom portion there was just a bunch of large bearnings. is that normal? everything looks fine, clean, and very little worn down. and the bearings in the retainer look great. can i just replace the bearings that came out of the bottom portion and use what i have?

Yeah, that's right. I just cleaned the bearings in mine, but if you want to replace them you need 26 loose 5/32" bearings for the lower headset. Are we having fun yet? ;)

edit: What I was wondering is if the headset would turn smoother if i removed the upper retainer and just used loose bearings up there, too?

I'm starting to think that 'french bike restoration' needs its own forum. meanwhile this thread is a lifesaver.

i've heard / read that loose bearings are better than retainer-ed bearings, fwiw.

back to the spindle/bb issue. i have been reading online about the various bb's online.

i will be using a track hub (42mm chainline). however, the crank i am going to use (sugino rd) has a 44mm chainline when using a 107mm un72 bb. my chainline will be 2mm off with this setup. i have not used chainring spacers before. will they be able to compensate for this 2mm? are the spacers narrow enough to compensate for this? i could use a 105mm phil wood bb, but thats so much $$!

if i skip the un72 bb and go with a plain old spindle/bearing/cup setup, i will use a 113mm spindle (the smallest length i can find). this will place my chainline out of alignment by 8mm. can spacers compensate for 8mm? what other adjustments can i make? i am not willing to redish/respace the wheel.

finally, someone in this thread was recommending the sugino 5 series spindle (for 70mm) with french cups. this will only work if the cups are thin, right? otherwise wouldnt you want to use the 3 series which is designed for 68mm?

1) I'll attempt to retap one of the junker Swiss frames in the basement to English (I've got at least three frames I could do this on, and keep meaning to try it out). I've heard this can be done, but I'm dubious. Then I'll let you know the results. This may take me a couple weeks.


I had my LBS retap the Swiss BB shell on my PH12 with an English tap and it made little difference. The cups went in just a little bit further and then became very hard to turn halfway (again)

I'm now going to try the sheldon brown method with bolt/nut/washer set up to force an English cup in, then out and in again to try to persuade the threads to be English for godsake! I'm not going to bother with finding swiss cups and matching spindles, because I want the option of fitting (English) cartridge BB's to fine tune chainline as this is going to be a fixie.

By the way, does anyone have experience with retapping a Swiss bb to Italian? My LBS mechanic said it wasn't really advisable due to the difference in shell diameter.

To answer your first question, yes, you can get chainring spacers, in sizes from 1 to 4 mm that I have seen. But if you are using the Phil Wood rings to mount your UN-72, you have a little leeway to adjust the chainline just when you install it, as Poguemahone said, just line it up before tightening down, that 2 mm should be no problem to correct for. Furthermore, and this is a subject of debate, but the guy who runs fixedgeargallery.com is of the opinion that 3 mm is close enough. I personally prefer to get it as close as possible.

someone should really rename this thread French Fixie bb / crank issues or something like that.

I still have a set of TA French BB cups for sale. Holla!

headsets, don't forget the headsets...

protaghiro said
"someone in this thread was recommending the sugino 5 series spindle (for 70mm) with french cups. this will only work if the cups are thin, right? otherwise wouldnt you want to use the 3 series which is designed for 68mm?"

This info is from the Harris web site, and Poguemahone, I believe, agreed with it. The distinction between "thin" and "not thin", in the context of Harris' claim, is that old french cups are thinner than the newer Japanese-made Sugino french-threaded cups; so a '5' spindle is needed for an old french cupset, to push the bearings snug out to the cup surfaces. whereas a '3' spindle will work, as intended, in a newer Sugino cupset.

Heavens me, I hope I've said that right.

"finally, someone in this thread was recommending the sugino 5 series spindle (for 70mm) with french cups. this will only work if the cups are thin, right? otherwise wouldnt you want to use the 3 series which is designed for 68mm? "

Correct. The "3"s aren't that hard to find. Most any old bike with a Japanese crank has one. One way to find out the wall thickness is to try install a "3" spindle. If the adjustable cup goes so far in you cannot fasten down the lockring, your cups are thin walled.

You can flip the spindle around to move the crank in closer to the BB shell and adjust chainline in that manner. Most spindles are assymetrical-- the drive side sticks out further than the non-drive side.

Older cranks tended to take longer spindles than modern ones.

"this is the type of headset i have however i noticed one thing when i took it all apart to clean it - instead of having two bearing retainers, it only had one bearing retainer on the top portion of the headset, and in the bottom portion there was just a bunch of large bearnings."

It's possible the headset had some sort of mixed overhaul in the past. Generally, I throw out the retainers and put in 5/32 bearings top and bottom. The number varies according to the headset. Muccapazza's 26 sounds right for the standard UO headset.

"By the way, does anyone have experience with retapping a Swiss bb to Italian? My LBS mechanic said it wasn't really advisable due to the difference in shell diameter."

It can be done to Swiss as well as French, and English for that matter. The BB shell has to be reamed out first, then retapped to Italian. It's a classic fix for good older frames with badly stripped BB shells that cannot be retapped to their original threading. What you do if you have a stripped Italian BB I don't know, throw out the bike I guess...

Thanks for sharing your experience on the Swiss to English conversion. The technique seems somewhat spotty to me, because the shells are (aproxiamately) the same diameter. I still intend to try this one Sunday when I can think of nothing better to do, just out of curiousity. I'd like to see for myself, I have the taps, and at least 3 Swiss threaded frames I don't terribly care about. I'll sacrifice them for science, and if the operation is a success and the patient lives, someone can have a nice, classic, English threaded (in the BB) Motobecane or Peugeot-- for free.

On the chainline issue, I've had remarkable success taking an older crank, removing the big ring and replacing the chainring bolts with shorter stack BMX ones, and re-using the spindle that came with the crank. This always seems to net a fairly accurate chainline, with the least amount of hassle and $$. It's also one of the main reasons I suggest switching over to the Sugino cups, if you can find them. I've on occasion done some small redishing of rear wheels as well. Unfortunately, I seem to have a regular supply of cheap older frames I can raid for parts, which is not as likely in a place like Seattle or the Bay area.

I think that covers most of the inquiries... can't believe this thread is still alive and heading for five (!) pages. Maybe we do need our own forum.

yeah... what about that? should i just dump the retainer and put in loose bearings when i reassemble?

I'ld just do what Poguemahone suggests.

Weed Eater - I got three UO8's from thrift stores (total-$11) that I'm working with, trying to put one good one together, anyway, Poguemahone is sending me a stronglight french thread adjustable cup for a Gitane, and said for repayment I'm a 'sposed to help out a fellow francophile in need. WHat headset parts do you need? I've got enough that I could send on just about a complete used but not abused headset. Let me know, I'ld hate to see you have to buy that cool 531 Gitane (I never saw rear droputs like that before, if it was my size I'ld be going for it) just to get a headset for your UO8.