I'm just curious if you can use standard track hubs on a frame with 110 rear spacing (as opposed to 120) or wear you can find them. Thanks.

p.s. I did search, just couldn't find this answered specifically.

i think someone (ceya?) had the answer: need new hub.

its a 110 keirin frame, no?

i'd imagine cold-setting/respacing to 120 wouldnt hurt... but probably getting the 110 dura ace njs hub is best?

yeah, kerin

cold setting is your friend.

not the same frame I know - but I've seen someone cold set a redline monocog (110mm) to 130mm (!!) to squeeze in a Shimano Nexus 8 hub.

where can you get that done...and how much does it run?

I've seen a bit on Sheldon Brown's site which describes how to spread a steel frame with a couple 2x4's.

It sounded pretty simple as long as you're not too ham fisted. If you don't want to try it yourself a good bike shop should do it for a fairly reasonable charge.

DanO

This is the deal (and see other threads for more of the same):

A 120 spaced rear hub has a 10 mm round axle and 120 mm spacing between the inside surfaces of the stay-ends (unless it was spaced 123 mm to allow for two NJS chain tugs mounted on the inside of the stay-ends).

The hub shells are identical between 120 and 120 hubs, but a 110 spaced rear hub has a 10 mm round axle that has been flatted on two opposing sides, reducing its dimension to 8 mm at the thinnest part (but 10 mm at the widest). How it achieves the 110 spacing depends on the brand: A Dura Ace 7600 high flange track hub has different cones and locknuts that take off 2.5 mm on each cone and each locknut (for a total of 10 mm difference) relatively to the 120 mm version. An NJS 120 mm spaced rear hub typically does not have a large spacer on each side, so you are often faced with having to replace not just the axle but the rest of the hardware as well (at least the track nuts are the same). Axle sets are available in Japan if you have the right sources but they're rare as heck here in the US, and without a machine shop you wouldn't be able to convert 120 cones and nuts to the 110 versions. In short, a 110 frame only works if you convert it to 120 or if you have a 110 hub in hand.

Converting a 110-spaced frame requires not just respacing the rear ends to 120 or 123 (which you can do with arm strength alone -- no tools required). It also requires increasing the spacing in the stay-ends from 8 to 10 mm (and in front, from 8 to 9). You can do a nice professional job of this (just like the Japanese frame shops do when converting keirin frames) with what's called a draw-file. this file doesn't have any teeth on the edges and has teeth only going one direction on each flat side (it looks like diagonal lines rather than crosshatching). A draw-file gives you a very smooth, finished surface and doesn't dig into the corners of the slot, and results in an extra 2 mm that looks as smooth as the original stay-end. Then use a non-tapered round file (a chainsaw chain sharpening file works just great) to smooth the front end of the slot. It takes about 20 minutes of vigorous filing to get it right, but it looks as good as any Bridgeport mill will ever do. The same draw-file is also good for removing burs and galling on the sides of the stay-ends where the track nuts muck up the metal (it's a cheap file, by the way -- good ones should run $7 or 8 for a 12-inch long one at an industrial supply house).

On the respacing, just push hard on one chain stay and pull on the other. Don't put all the pressure on the stay-ends themselves, or you are likely to bend them out of parallel, which will cause your hubs to bind. Do it a bit at a time -- you'll see the spacing increase by 3-4 mm with each moderate effort. After you've got the right spacing, you want to be sure you gained the extra millimeters equally from each side, so that the bike tracks straight. To do this, the easiest way is to loop a piece of string from one stay end up around the head tube and back to the other stay end, making sure that the path for the string is identical on both sides. Make sure it's taut, then measure the distance from the string to the seat tube directly between the outward bound and returning segments of the string. The distance should be the same on both sides.

Also, as an FYI, Phil Wood hubs have 8mm axles, so they can be run in a cold-set 110mm spaced frame as well. Phil hubs can be respaced down as far as 113mm (thanks, Brett), so in theory you wouldn't necessarily even have to respace, since it's only a 3mm adjustment.

I just cold set my own framefrom 110 to 120 using the sheldon brown method. It was was really easy. Go for it, just be careful. I couldnt believe how little force you need to apply, but then again you are only moving it like 5 cm on each side. I used the string method to measure if it was straight. It went great. Go for it.

I'm a regular successful user of the 'pick it up and bend it with your bare hands' method, though I ought not recommend it to anyone else >.>

wait...this maybe slightly too technical for me(and I to drunk) but are you saying that the front's spacing is gonna be off...I might be getting a kerin frame but I don't know if I'm getting enough of a good dela to be worth this much trouble...

i don't see how this would affect the front's spacing at all.

…um …you would only need to move the stays 5 millimeters (not centimeters) on each side.

the front spacing isn't any different. just that keirin hubs use a thinner axle.
thus a "regular" track hub's axle will be too fat to fit in the dropouts.

Baxtefer is correct. Spacing is the standard 100 mm, but the axle is 8 mm instead of 9 mm, so the slot in the fork tips needs to be widened slightly. It only takes a couple minutes of filing, so no big deal. Every keirin frame maker does this all the time, and so can you. Once done, you'd never know you once had a 110 frame.

I just wasnt thinking when I typed that. I moved them 5mm.

And 11.4 I have a 70s french 110 sapced frame. Is it likely I have the smaller slots as well, or is it just keirin frames? I upsized my bmx slots so this wont be a problem, just wodnering.

Keirin frames have adopted various rear hub dimensions that were in use elsewhere, and settled down first on 110, then added 120, which since has become the general standard. There were lots of track hub standards so I can't assure you that your frame has the same 110 mm standard that keirin adopted, but the odds are pretty good. The only other 110 mm hub standards I've ever seen have had round 8 mm axles (which predictably tended to bend, which led to their being modified to the flatted 10 mm variety). Even if your frame was built to that round 8 mm standard, it would fit 110 mm flatted axles just fine. Again, unless you have a frame of significant historical value, you might be better off just filing it out to 10 mm spacing and using a modern hub. The only other item I can't be sure of is your frame chain line -- the 8 mm round axles were used on hubs that had slightly different flange spacing, but I don't know whether the cog would actually have a different position in terms of chain line. Check your chainring offset against the chain line numbers on John Dacey's website and if you have standard alignment, you should be fine; if not, a spacer in the bottom bracket can probably solve the problem quickly and easily as well.

I just measured and my rear slots are 9mm, but the forks are 10mm. I'm thinking that the forks arent original. The arms are also flat bladed which may be another clue. I ordered the iro wheelset so I will just file the dropouts to fit the wheels.

i'd recommend filing flats in the axles rather than the trackends. you can always replace the axle, but once you file the frame, you're stuck with it.

We are going to go ahead and do a short run of custom 110 axles, caps, and washers for Keirin frames. There will be an upcharge due to the much shorter production run on them (about $45) if they are sent out in new hubs. Or you can modify existing hubs with a new axle kit.

Let me know if there are any questions on the subject.

Brent

some bike shops also have this neat tool that's kind of like a car jack, except smaller, and it goes between the chainstays. turn a little crank, spread the stays, open the spacing. woot.

Can't spread aluminum frames safely though. They seem to be the ones really pressing me on the subject...

that's awesome! pw does it again!

Fantastic! A great help to the community, Brent!

my hero...

i'll never forget calling EuroAsia just after getting my first 110 frame this falll...
"do you stock 110 hubs?"
"no."
"But several manufacturers are making them, right?"
"right."
"so, do you know how i could get one?"
"have any friends in Japan?"

that's exactly how i got my hubs... a very wonderful friend in japan (thank you!)

don't reset your frame. just call Japan.