aren't the surly hubs fixed/fixed? If so, can't go wrong with that.

true. but you can get Pauls laced to Fusions for $395 from Paul which is a pretty good deal and just $130 more than IROs formulas to Deep Vs. not sure what NYCVelo quoted him for the surly's to Deep Vs. Aeros are a good bit cheaper than Deep Vs and awesome rims but i dont know of a place where you can buy that set up pre-built. I tried to get him to get the Forumlas lace to Mavic CXP-22s for $135.

can you clarify what you mean by that?

same here.

... but I did just buy some phils laced to deepvs and bikegasmed when I rode them.

If you have the money... go w. the phils...

if not, I'd say surlys are worth it.

My surly hubs are on their third year...snow, salt, rain and endless track skids ect. no problems yet.

I have the original surly hub for my SS (actually called 1x1 back then). I've had it for a little over 6 years and never touched it.

Just played with a set of pauls yesterday at work. Very nice. On the stand, they roll smoother than Phil Wood Hubs (both wheels laced to open pros). They were some of the smoothest rolling bearings I've felt, second only to a pair of ZIPP 404s a guy in the shop races.

I roll on formulas w/enduro bearings.

i have a set of pauls, phils, and formulas. the pauls are indeed my favorite and like you, i think they roll smoother than the phils. plus i've been riding the **** out of em for a year with no problem.

J&B importers now has formula hubs, almost every bike shop orders from J&B. This makes them widely available.

I can clarify. IRO hubs are IRO hubs. They are made by Formula, but they are not Formula hubs. Good quality hubs nonetheless.

Phil hub bearings are the exact same as grade 25 bearings you can get at any bearing dealer. Most major cities will have numerous bearing dealers. You can find them in the yellow pages. Phil bearings have nothing to do with 6001 anything. Where that came from I don't know. They are grade 25 ball bearings. Nice and you can even get generic grade 25 ball bearings at the LBS, but it will be lots cheaper getting them from a bearing dealer if you have access to one.

i'm going to have to take all your posts about hubs and bearings with a huge grain of salt, (perhaps a monumental salt lick) since the 6001 spec comes from Phil Wood's own website.

care to explain the manufacturing and performance differences between the IRO hubs and the Formula hubs?

Lick on bro. IRO hubs are good ****. They are made by Formula which also makes good ****. IRO hubs are not Formula design and, as such, are not and cannot be found on any branded Formula hubs. They are not Formula hubs.

Phil bearings! Hey man, if you want them, by all means go for it. They are good bearings. Take them to a bearing dealer and they'll mic it up and I promise you, they are identical to Grade 25 bearings, which are still good quality bearings. Dude, go for Phil if you want. They make good stuff. I'm just trying to tell it like it is. 6001 is a myth. Just take some to a bearing dealer and ask them to compare it to a Grade 25.

oooohhh, so that's what you meant by that.

i'm pretty sure you're wrong. they're the exact same hubs, with a different stamp on 'em. formula doesn't machine completely different hubs just for a little dealer in pennsylvania (IRO).

I don't have a lot to add other than I just built up a pair of wheels with surly hubs and I like em. I wanted formulas, but I'm loyal to my LBS guy and he couldn't get a pair so I went with the Surlys. At any rate, I really don't see whats the big deal. Just go with what you think looks best (and has the right spacing and spoke holes, obviously). Any decent quality hub with decent bearings will do the same job...spin in circles endlessly and smoothly. I've used crap hubs and good hub, and when properly maintained with cog and lock ring properly installed, they all will work fine.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. Grade 25 ball bearings are ball bearings. Individual balls that can be used in a loose ball setup. 6001 is an industry standard size of cartridge bearing. The cartridge contains ball bearings, but the balls are not removable, so the cartridge must be replaced as a unit. 6001 refers to the dimensions of the bearing cartridge inside diameter, outside diameter, and depth.

That size is used in many applications inside and outside bicycling It's not proprietary to Phil Wood. It's used in Formula, Miche, and I believe Promax hubs. Any bearing dealer can get you 6001 bearings from various manufacturers with various different specs. For $6 you can get a high quality metal 6001, for significantly more you can get one with ceramic balls, or even full ceramic cartridges. I just looked up 6001 in the QBP catalog, and they want $8 for an Enduro brand 6001RS (RS stands for rubber seal).

Phil doesn't make their own bearings, but they do specify high tolerances, and Phil Grease in the bearings they use, and put their name on. Are Phil's Cartridge bearings better than the ones used by Miche, Suzue, or Formula? I don't know, but they certainly are good, and although you can buy cheap 6001 bearings for significantly less, or exotic ones for significantly more I would not have any problem paying $24 for a full set of 4 Phil Bearings.

Pay now or pay later.

Anyway, I have a surly 135 rear with 2 years on it. I weigh anywhere from 194 to 220, with out clothes. I frequently, mostly at least, ride with clothes, bag, chain, junk in bag, etc. 28 miles a day, 5 days week. City riding, a few skids, LOTS of hills.

Never, ever, ever a problem. Ever. Smooth still to this day.

My next wheels have PW hubs. A lot of money, but I saved for a long time.

*ding* *ding* *ding* we have a winner. yes mattface gets free shipping if he buys a pirate t-shirt for knowing something about bearings! *ding* *ding* *ding*

I've used both and so far I like the formula hubs better for one reason...there is no adjustments of the bearings for the formula hubs on the surlys you can adjust the bearing tightness and mine were kinda a ***** to get adjusted correctly and keep them adjusted correctly

WTF? You can adjust formula hubs. That's what the locknuts and false-cones are for.

Just adjusted my Surly today...

I stand corrected...guess I need to take a closer look at my hubs

The problem i have with the surly hubs is with the adjustable tension on the bearings.

If you look at the axle on any quality cup and cone hub, there's a groove on it.
Thus, you can have a fixing nut, special washer which interacts with the grove, and the cone.
The washer prevents the movement of the outer nut from tightening the cone into the bearings.

The surly hubs lack this feature, so they have a tendency to tighten up on the bearings & ruin them.

i was just sitting here reading this thread earlier today thinking, damn i ****ing want some pauls. well tonight my phil/deepv's got stolen by some crackhead in the mission. muther****. i should be more careful what i ask for.

OH snap! You are absolutely correct. In my haste, I assumed the original poster was talking about ball bearings, not sealed bearings. Totally my bad on that one.

I'm not dogging Phil at all. They design and make good ****. All I'm saying is that there bearings, like their grease is made by another company, as you pointed out. So, if you want to save money then you can get some "sealed" bearings from any local bearing dealer. SKF bearings are pretty nice.

Once again folks, cartridge bearings != sealed bearings. Most cartridge bearings are sealed, yes, but many loose-bearing hubs and headsets are sealed as well.