Like I said, in that particular photo, The Pista's wheel is shoved as far forward in the track end as it will go. If it were centered, as Ken Cox says his are, the difference between the two would be negligible. In any case, it's a non-issue - as I said before - as I don't think Ken is talking about the same thing that the rest of us are talking about.

The point I'm trying to make is that the whole clearance thing - for the most part - is a non-issue.

i agree with mcanto. i ride a converted crit frame and the clearance between the back wheel and the seat tube is so tight i can lock through the rear wheel, seat tube, and a parking meter pole with a mini u-lock no problem. i think axle position for axle position it is just as tight as a pista anyday.

the OP also specifically asked: "particularly one intended for road riding?"
whereas it seems there are a lot of answers partaining to the track.

the real response should be:
no, there is no difference, however, track frames are sexy, and they tend to come with track ends. i like sexy things so i ride a track bike, period.

I do offer that option, but only for one reason:

Forward facing horizontal dropouts are a huge timesaver if you run a rear brake. The angle of the slot allows the wheel to move back and forth without adusting your brake pads.

Super short chainstays sometimes require a rear facing frame end, as it would otherwise be very difficult to get your wheel off. Rear facing ends allow the use of chain tensioners. Rear facing ends also keep your bike's geometry static, and not dependent upon gearing (if installed correctly, parallel to the ground, which they all are not). I'm sure that's all been mentioned.

Some people think they look classier as well. I sure love how a 1010B looks.

Mike Flanigan at ANT puts 1010 copys on a lot of his intended for single speed/fixed gear frames. In my opinion, they work absolutely perfectly with his aesthetics.

They both have their place.

Thanks for the mention!

This all begs the question of why you would want super-tight clearance between the tire and the seat tube.

There is a long-held superstition that this somehow makes a bike faster or quicker handling, but I don't buy it.

Short chainstays lead to poor weight distribution and an uncomfortable ride, with no significant benefit to couteract these drawbacks.

Sheldon "Short Chainstays Are A Silly Fad" Brown

There are actually 2 answers to this that I can think of...

1) Track ends are probably the most traditional way to put a wheel on the rear of a bike with a chain. bikes have used this techique since at least the 1910s-20s. Derailleurs required a different interface and thus the vertical drop.

2) Track ends allow say a 14t and a 18t to be used by the rider without adding or removing links from the chain. Vertical drops this is not possible.

Since the force put on the hub comes from where the wheel touches the ground in a straight line through the hub, the reactant force from the seat stays to keep the hub in place is in the opposite direction (or straight down). The close the seat stay angle is to 90 degrees from the ground, the better it can do this. So the closer the rear wheel is to the seat stay, the closer the angle of the seat stay to 90 deg. and the stiffer the rear of the frame. Which means better power transfer under hard sprinting, a definite benefit for a track bike.

I got tired of reading the nonsense answers, so if someone actually gave the real reason I am sorry for the repeat. They are horizontal drops so that one can adjust chain tension. In a fixed gear there is no deraileur to tension your chain, and so this solves that problem.

EDIT: basically what was said in the very first reply. you can't torque the wheel out of the dropouts. I think mathmatically there are larger forces applied to a track cog than on a geared bike, but either way its sort of a safety feature.

I think it's more the obvious ability to adjust tension when swapping cogs around without breaking the chain, but put these together and its a pretty good system.

That theory was disconfirmed in the fourth post chunts. You and lylph both suck at reading the thread. This one is pretty informative, it's a good one to read start to finish.

well it was...

Sheldon, please tell us, do you have a Sheldon Name-Searcher that notifies you when your name pops in a thread more than once? It seems like magic that you never post unless your name has appeared numerous times. Just the same magic that enables you to never be in Harris when I walk in. Curious.

No. There is way way more torque/force/whatever applied under the gearing on a geared bike, say a MTB rider in the granny ring, regardless of rider strength or ability.

i remember this thread! and reading it again it's obvious that there's no 1 simple answer as to why.

tradition, appearance and clearance issues aside, the mechainical junction at the inside of fork ends should theoretically be stiffer than the front end of a set of long horizontal dropouts.

either way, they both work and are on some awesome frames.

This wasn't about vertical vs horizontal, this was about forward vs backwards.

Not true, my clearance is tight and even flat, if
i had to shift the wheel forwards in the drop outs that whee; woudl not be coming out.

HE he he......you said rear entry.

Answer this question- why do most new ss mtb frames have track ends? On a bike with a rear brake horizontal dropouts would make way more sense.

I guess this is one of the reasons for coaster or disc brakes on a ss.

supposedly paragon machine works is going to start producing 1010b reproduction dropouts in the near future. if i'm getting a custom frame for street riding i want some 1010b's dammit.

Or you can just have a frame built using "real" 1010b's. They're not hard to find at all- harris stocks them, there's a few sets on ebay at any given time, some custom builders even got em..

I don't understand this either. Most SS MTB's run rear brakes, they should have a tensioning system that allows to change gearing without readjusting you brakes. You have 2 options for this, a dropout (forward or rear facing (and I know the rear facing ones are not called dropouts but I'm lazy) with an angle similer to the 1010's or a eccentric BB. I personally think that Disk brakes and track ends are a horrible combo.

Honestly, the reason they have track ends is because it's cheaper that an EBB.

I have read that it is safer atleast for the track

If you are fortunate enough to have a Quickbeam per the Rivendell reference then yes--
though it's strictly not a track bike. A go-anywhere fixed gear. There are other
reasons for brakes. . . .

Exactly. A 22:32 gearing puts massive force spikes through the drivetrain, which is why mtb riders nearly always snap chains accelerating up a steep hill in a low gear.

I do use the Bike Forums search function to search for "sheldon" on a regular basis. I also have similar searches for various bicycle-related Usenet groups. I subscribe to a ton of bike related email listservs, and have a filter that notifies me whenever "sheldon" appears. Good thing my name isn't Joe!

Due to my health problems and resulting limited mobility, lately I've mostly been telecommuting, and only going into the shop for a few hours on Friday afternoons. These days I'm spending my working time maintaining the Website, answering tech questions by email, and on various online fora like this one.

The only things I really need to go into the shop for are doing photography of new parts and such, and to pick up my paycheck...

Sheldon "Gimpy" Brown

Someone please photoshop Commissioner Gordon turning on the sheldon-signal!