group order frame
#27
(((Fully Awake)))
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From: ~Serenading with sensous soliloquies whilst singing supple sentences that are simultaneously suppling my sonnets with serenity serendipitously.~ -Serendipper
Bikes: Guerciotti Pista-Giant Carbon-Bridgestone300- Batavus Type Champion Road Bike, Specialized Hardrock Commuter, On-One The Gimp (SS Rigid MTB/hit by a truck)- Raleigh Sports 3-speed,Gatsby Scorcher, comming soon...The Penny Farthing Highwheel!
Originally Posted by freeskihp
deffinately, pista concept or leader track bike style sounds awesome
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無上甚深微妙法 .... 百千萬劫難遭遇..... 我今見聞得受持
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無上甚深微妙法 .... 百千萬劫難遭遇..... 我今見聞得受持
#29
or tarckeemoon, depending
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: the pesto of cities
Bikes: Davidson Impulse, Merckx Titanium AX, Bruce Gordon Rock & Road, Cross Check custom build, On-One Il Pomino, Shawver Cycles cross, Zion 737, Mercian Vincitore, Brompton S1L, Charge Juicer
Originally Posted by vinnydelnegro
sign me up for steel lugged frames by a smaller builder. we can all go to jacobs. his custom frames start at $850.
I either want something nicer than my Soma in steel or ti or an utter piece of crap I can throw some extra parts on and leave locked up in the rain 5 days a week. A Leader/Concept-style bike is not really doing it for me.
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,990
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From: Williston, VT
Bikes: Bridgestone RB-T, Soma Rush, Razesa Racer, ⅔ of a 1983 Holdsworth Professional, Nishiki Riviera Winter Bike
#32
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From: Boston, MA
Bikes: https://www.jacobsbicycles.com
Originally Posted by vinnydelnegro
sign me up for steel lugged frames by a smaller builder. we can all go to jacobs. his custom frames start at $850.
jacob@jacobsbicycles.com
#33
Stinky McStinkface
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Pa.
Bikes: Clemente Custom(not built-up), TI Raleigh Record SS, VitaSprint Mixte SS, IRO S.E.(coming) Ibex Trophy Pro
OK... this is cool... but we all live in different places... where will the order be shipped to? How will they be distributed? Do we set it up with the company to drop-ship them to each individual?
I nominate the Soma Delancey... or the Cochon at TBB.
I nominate the Soma Delancey... or the Cochon at TBB.
#34
LF for the accentdeprived
Joined: May 2005
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From: Budapest, Hungary
Originally Posted by BostonFixed
Don Walker often talked about $50 OEM frames, I bet you could do a large group buy for a frame similar to an iro/pake for under $150.
The idea is great. I'd soooo want a cheap ti frame. Sadly, I don't have the cash so I'm not in
#35
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Ti frames are expensive
I actually have been researching this. Due to a request from a guy on RBR and due to my own attitude about CF for ATBs.
1 - you can find 'cheap' Ti frames in China - but I do not bring frames from China. Those frames cost about the same as a Carbon Fiber Frame.
2 - there is one super good Ti maker in Taiwan. I would say the same quality as Litespeed. However, their frames are twice the cost of a good CF frame.
3 - on direct purchases it is easy to get customers a super nice monocoque carbon frame for $399 -- but for the quality I would demand on Ti the price would be more like $799
I am still thinking of this for FLY cross-country mountain bikes; but mainly due to my beleif that falling on a rock with an ATB frame should not make you wonder if you will have a total frame failure in the next mile.
I maybe testing this idea at Sea Otter
Anyway, if enough people agreed on a quality Ti frame; I can make that happen as long as Taiwan is OK with everyone. I am not ready for China [or it is not ready for me, depending on your point of view]
1 - you can find 'cheap' Ti frames in China - but I do not bring frames from China. Those frames cost about the same as a Carbon Fiber Frame.
2 - there is one super good Ti maker in Taiwan. I would say the same quality as Litespeed. However, their frames are twice the cost of a good CF frame.
3 - on direct purchases it is easy to get customers a super nice monocoque carbon frame for $399 -- but for the quality I would demand on Ti the price would be more like $799
I am still thinking of this for FLY cross-country mountain bikes; but mainly due to my beleif that falling on a rock with an ATB frame should not make you wonder if you will have a total frame failure in the next mile.
I maybe testing this idea at Sea Otter
Anyway, if enough people agreed on a quality Ti frame; I can make that happen as long as Taiwan is OK with everyone. I am not ready for China [or it is not ready for me, depending on your point of view]
#36
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Joined: Oct 2005
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From: ~Serenading with sensous soliloquies whilst singing supple sentences that are simultaneously suppling my sonnets with serenity serendipitously.~ -Serendipper
Bikes: Guerciotti Pista-Giant Carbon-Bridgestone300- Batavus Type Champion Road Bike, Specialized Hardrock Commuter, On-One The Gimp (SS Rigid MTB/hit by a truck)- Raleigh Sports 3-speed,Gatsby Scorcher, comming soon...The Penny Farthing Highwheel!
Taiwan is an excellent industrial resource. I'm 100% interested.
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無上甚深微妙法 .... 百千萬劫難遭遇..... 我今見聞得受持
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無上甚深微妙法 .... 百千萬劫難遭遇..... 我今見聞得受持
#37
Originally Posted by Serendipper
Taiwan is an excellent industrial resource. I'm 100% interested.
#38
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Philadelphia
Bikes: Ritchey Road Logic, Pink Panther
I remember there was a guy at the trexlertown swap this fall from nyc making ti track frames (he had samples there and the quality looked good) for I think around 650 (not sure tho? and this might not have included a fork). I got his business card but who knows if I can find it again.
#41
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: SW Ohio
Bikes: Classic lugged-steel road, touring, gravel
Originally Posted by wheelsucker
****! Taiwan and their crap bikes. Buy American or build it yourself. If your going to spend good money support a local framebuilder...End of story
#42
Originally Posted by LóFarkas
But then he also talked about how the materials for a CF frame cost $20 so I wouldn't consider him an authentic source for anything outside of custom steel framebuilding done in Texas for senior trackracers.
The idea is great. I'd soooo want a cheap ti frame. Sadly, I don't have the cash so I'm not in
The idea is great. I'd soooo want a cheap ti frame. Sadly, I don't have the cash so I'm not in

carbon is cheap for big companies to make. they use the same molds for multiple sizes...
Ti sounds sweet as hell though.
#44
Originally Posted by smurfy
I guessing local craft builders here in the USA usually work alone, building frames one at a time. Do you know how long it would take for the builder to produce 400, or even just 100 frames (and how much each individual one would cost?).
Last edited by wheelsucker; 01-06-07 at 06:36 PM.
#45
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
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Article from slowtwitch.com. Food for thought
The bike biz
The juicy part:
As for $50 OEM frames, search the roadie forums for posts by bikesdirect owner Mike Spratt (username: bikesdirect com). Apparently, and he'd know, Al frames cost from $20-50. Columbus frames are near the top of that. Of course, you'd have to be ordering hundreds, if not thousands.
The bike biz
The juicy part:
. You've got to get your frames made at a frame factory, because bike frames must be incredibly precise. It always makes me chuckle when I see somebody come into the bike biz from some "higher" industry, thinking that because he's been making car parts or tank turrets or airplanes or speedboats it's just got to be simpler making bikes. What these people don't realize is that the tolerances one must hold in this business are at least as close as as in just about any other industry. Consider this: I (when I was in the biz) would reject cranksets if the total runout exceeded one tenth of one millimeter at the large chainring. That means the bottom bracket, and the squarehole cut into the crank, must be absolutely perfect, and the crankarm absolutely straight. It means the metal must be sufficiently hard at that joint so as not to deflect under the heavily leveraged load applied at the pedal. Very, very hard to do.
Likewise, frames are hard to make, if you want them to be straight. It's very hard to make a frame in which the rear wheel is centered inside the chainstays, and centered underneath the rear brake hole, and where the front and rear triangle are true to each other, and where the head tube is parallel to the seat tube. It's so hard to do that, that I've seen manufacturing companies that make very precision car parts just throw up their hands after years of trying to make frames and say, "It can't be done."
Likewise, frames are hard to make, if you want them to be straight. It's very hard to make a frame in which the rear wheel is centered inside the chainstays, and centered underneath the rear brake hole, and where the front and rear triangle are true to each other, and where the head tube is parallel to the seat tube. It's so hard to do that, that I've seen manufacturing companies that make very precision car parts just throw up their hands after years of trying to make frames and say, "It can't be done."
#46
LF for the accentdeprived
Joined: May 2005
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From: Budapest, Hungary
Originally Posted by jacobpriest
carbon is cheap for big companies to make. they use the same molds for multiple sizes...
Ti sounds sweet as hell though.
Ti sounds sweet as hell though.
#48
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Joined: May 2005
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From: Budapest, Hungary
Excellent discovery, my dear Watson. Hence "WTF?"
...perhaps I didn't get it because it didn't make sense. I'm talking about materials cost and you come in with building methods... my gut instinct tells me you're wrong as well.
Or was it some strange irony?...
I guess I still don't get it.
...perhaps I didn't get it because it didn't make sense. I'm talking about materials cost and you come in with building methods... my gut instinct tells me you're wrong as well.
Or was it some strange irony?...
I guess I still don't get it.
#49
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,152
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by wheelsucker
Quality is worth the wait hands down. Yes, some frame builders do build alone, then again there are some who work with others. It may take the builder quite some time but at least I know the frame is AMERICAN and his or her family is fed. Cost? $$$ nothing more than what people already spend on njs second hand frames.
As for builders' families being fed, Taiwan has the 2nd highest income per capita in Asia. They also have universal health care. There aren't any more people going hungry there than in N.A.. If I could afford it, I'd buy Canadian, but it's not like standard high quality frames are made in Bangledesh.
#50
this is most interesting thread in a while for me. im digging on a lot of good ideas, but it seems to me for this to work we would need a lot of people behind one really good idea, just dont look at me, i like the idea of a nice lugged steel frame, or a affordable ti frame, or a cheap-o beater f-around frame. i am wondering how many orders it would take to get an existing brand like iro or soma or kogswell to run a new model? a group order would be worth it just for the banter in frame design and "how you set YOURS up" threads. it would be like a constructive interpretation of the bfssfg method. oh and count me in.




