And not just because of overlap either. I love my track bike for City cycling, and it does have some overlap. It has moderate TRACK geometry which gives it sports car like handling on the streets. I just make sure to use the rear fork ends to my advantage and that gives me slightly longer effective chainstays. Problem over than overlap of the pedals with the front wheels is once the fork rake gets too vertical, the angles get too steep, and the chainstays get too short, the result becomes two fold. First, the bike becomes twitchy. Twitchy may have some use on a smooth velodrome, but does work well in the streets. It is exhausting to constantly be correcting a twitchy bicycle to keep it on track (no pun intended) through NYC's uneven pavement, cobbles, grates, and potholes. Secondly, the road conditions on a bike with these angles and short wheelbase will translate too much vibration to the rider throughout City rides. This will beat the rider up over a long ride. The best way I can explain it is the bike pictured is the equivalent of driving an F1 race car in NYC. Most track bikes are the equivalent of driving a Lotus Elise in NYC.

i have been doing alot of thinking about it and I decided to not go with the trade. Its just too much to worry about and would take the fun out of riding. Thanks for your input folks.

for what its worth, I have LL sized MKS steel clips on RX-1's/167.5 cranks and on Sylan Lites/165 cranks and with both I get hardly any toe overlap (if it is timed perfectly the tire will hit the last 2cm of my clips) . with my clipless on there is near none. both frames are in the 56-58 range and are decommissioned keirin/NJS though. as such I never have any problem trackstanding or riding at slow speeds with the overlap. I track stand with my wheel turned slightly toward my forward foot.

i suggest the owner of the second bike pictured grows like a foot or two and gets a longer top tube.

less rake makes the bike more stable. steeper head angle will make it steer quicker. a balance between the two is what matters. one thing though...the shorter rake will probably be accomapnied by a shorter chainstay which together can make the wheelbase a good bit shorter. i think that is what makes the bike feel more twitchy.
steeper angles will surely ride harsher.

it's already been said, deathhare. or do you think it just sounds better coming from you?

hey all. i'm the owner of that bike. i'm 6'2", how tall are you 666pack? :p. the TT is 53.5/54ish. its a combo of the rake and headtube angle in addition to the top tube that give it overlap. but even so, the overlap is about the same as the picture above mine. here is a pic better depicting my bike's overlap:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...e/DSC00999.jpg

That is a lot of overlap, even for me, and I tend to like some overlap. What size toeclips are those?

your bike is pretty awesome.
what are the angles and rake?
also how tall is the frame? it looks like 57 or 58cm on the seat tube...and only a 54cm TT...nuts.

edit: oh nevermind. i guess it's probably 55 or 56 on the seat tube.

the toe clips are size large. and the seat tube is actually 57 ctc. the rake, i would def say under 30mm, 25mm?, i don't really have the tools to measure that or the angles though.

Did you buy that from Paterek? I didn't think he made frames anymore. At least that's what it says in my bicycle building manual.

Either way, a very cool bike!

Regarding the overlap, that's not the end of the world. The only time I'd be worried about overlap is if I was going pretty fast. And when are you ever going to be going very fast and have the wheel turned that much?

i didn't buy it straight from him, at least twice removed. The former owner didn't but it custom but maybe the previous one. It's from the early mid 80s according to Tim Paterek when I asked him. His records got erased when his computer crashed so he could only guess.

in regards to overlap and going fast, i think it is actually more to worry about when going slow. if you are going fast one wouldn't be able to turn as sharp as one would going slow and hit their pedals (not to say you couldn't jerk your handle bars quickly and prove me otherwise). Which is very likely why steeper angles are found on track bikes where one is going fast.

uhh, maybe for track cranks... road touring cranks come in 180 and higher and bmx cranks come in 150 and lower, kids cranks are like 140.