... so you posted something on an internet forum? Brilliant. And the njs line is totally classic.

OK, sure thing. I'll stop. Here we go for real: Once you get into really nice hubs, the difference becomes really debatable. You want the cheapest good solution? Get some replacement phil wood bearings for your formula hubs. Super smooth, super durable, don't cost a fortune if you trash them, and don't attract the unwanted attention that phil hubs might. It also leaves you with some extra change for other upgrades or toys with your shop discount. AND (most important IMO) you get to learn how to replace bearings. Not rocket science, but something many people (even those who work at a bike shop) don't know how to do because they never try.

If you want to spent some $$, Phil hubs are really good, last forever, but some people think they look too blocky, and they are not the lighest solution out there. I had a White ENO on my mtn bike for awhile and loved it, but I'm sure people could come up with some picky things about those too. They are both really good, and you will never find a consensus answer about what is the "best."

I love zipp rims, but I am still skeptical of zipp hubs, and all other zipp accessories are ridiculously overpriced, but that is a different thread. A while ago their hubs had some issues that have been fixed, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the experience. It is probably unjustified these days, but hey, it's what it is. I ride Surly hubs and think they are great, I'm from the Twin Cities and met some of the Surly crew, but I don't think there is any advantage to Surly over formula, particularly for the higher price. Dimension and formula are totally negligable. Dura Ace and Campy are both really nice, and I thought quite hard about getting some DA hubs instead of the Surlys (good price), but be aware they are also going to require more maintanance and are probably not as durable as phils or whites. It has been two years since I looked through QBP, so I am not sure what other brands are in there, and I don't know what other distributors you use.

Look, I used to work at a shop. I do not fault you that much for wanting to take advantage of shop discounts - I have more road bike than I will ever need because I got an amazing deal on it. If you have the $$, go for it. Get whatever you want. My problem with this thread is that it seems almost like you are a self-admitted newb, but by throwing out terms like "njs" and talk about making a dual purpose trick/track bike, it's like you spend time on this forum w/o actually doing any riding to know what you are talking about. This makes your choice to spend some serious $$$ on hubs seem like an attempt to buy credability.

Not to hijack the threat, but if you do put some new wheels together, use it as a real learning experience and put them together yourself. I actually miss having access to a full bike shop work bench more than I miss the discounts. On a lot of items, if you are really savy at looking around online and at lbs sales, you can often find similar deals to wholesale prices. However, right now I really wish I had easy access to a headset press and a bottom bracket facing tool, and there is no way I am going to buy those tools for my home shop. The point is, if you are going to get some sweet parts to build up wheels - learn how to build them up yourself, especially if one of your mechanics is skilled at wheelbuilding and can teach you. Track wheels are relatively easy to build, and handbuilt wheels do feel better than machine built ones. There isn't too much you can "ruin" by trying, worst case scenario is you will have to scrap it and start over. One of my first attempts just wasn't working out - my spoke tensions were all over the place and I couldn't fix that and get it true. I gave it to the master mechanic with a six pack, he laughed and gave me a good wheel the next day. Make up some nice wheels, don't use them for tricks (use your formulas), and I hope you like track racing - it is crazy fun.

EDIT: second quote fixed

that's too much to read stoned.

True. Here's the Clif Notes version:

*Stop spending time talking stupid on this forum
*Get whatever you want - they are all good
*No matter what you get, use this opportunity to learn some wrenching skills.

If you want the best track hubs then I present the Royce:



They'll make them in any drilling, with any bearing and with almost any threading. Used for world record attempts etc

But if you want the best street track hub then go with the Phils. They really stand by their products and will fix any issues for you.

Do go on. I'm v. keen to hear how the absence of something can be less aero than the presence of something (all other things being equal of course).

fixedpip, how many world record attempts have involved Royce hubs? I can think of 1 world record, which I guess counts as an attempt. Any others?

just an observation to the OP: unless you're just keen on spending gobs of money, you'd be better served by a mid-level (miche, suzue promax) to moderately high-level (phil, record, DA) hub, laced with nice spokes to a good rim, with nice tyres, with a quality cog, chain, and crankset. i don't know what your budget is, or your plans for the rest of the build, but i'd build a 'decent' wheelset first, distribute your spending around the bike a bit (DA crank? wound up fork? sidis and atacs?) before you build a $800 wheelset. you can always build a nicer wheelset later if the first one isn't good enough.

another vote for zipps. ive been riding mine for about a year now and love them.

low count spokes are more aero, but deep dish rims like the zipp 404s actually channel the air in such away that the dirty air that spokes churn dont come into play. if youre interested in this stuff, zipps website has a ton of great info

Well... a street bike is more aero than a cafe racer because of its additional fairings. (The motorized kind... not a real bike).

I said all things being equal. A bike with fairings and fewer spokes is more aero than a bike with fairings and a lot of spokes.

I admit that in some cases more is less - obviously a disk wheel is more aero than a 12 spoke wheel (depending on angle of yaw, yada yada yada), the Mavic iO 5-spoke wheel is more aero than the HED 3-spoke wheel. But when it comes to plain old wire spokes, it's pretty simple, the fewer the spokes the more aero the wheel. Even when it comes to wheels with deep carbon rims, the lower the spoke count the better (even Zipp uses blade spokes - they wouldn't if spokes didn't hit the wind).

Profile's hubs seriously rock. I've beat my into submission and they keep begging for more!

well, its been a while since i gave a ****, but im about to order some pauls when i go back to work after the 4th. im going with em because 1- theyre less recognized by thieves (or so i hear and assume. theyre pretty simple looking and dont have "phil" scribed on em) 2- they cost a bit less than phils, and paul seems like as cool a guy as phil and 3- and probably the worst reason, i think ive heard and seen that tom lamarche uses them laced to deep v's 3x (wheelset i intend to build- red deep v in back and white deep v up front on black phils with dt alpine spokes- if those ****s ever break ill just stick to mtbing and road riding and never ride a fixie again). ive seen him around philly a few times and wish i were as good as him. its so demoralizing when someone the same age as you is about a million times better than you at whatever you want to do.

Why demoralizing? Take a page from der skaters... ride with him, learn and get better.

The Highland Park oval is a half mile long former car testing track complete with an uphill finish...dude isn't going to be doing any real track racing. Let him take his do-it-all tarckosaur and have Oscar give him a talking to.

hey, sorry i was away for a bit. i searched around, and feel convinced that you're right. the model i'd been using to explain the phenomenon in my mind is not entirely applicable.

if you're curious as to what my reasoning was, it had to do with the spokes' slipstream. in a situation where spokes could "draft" each other, more would indeed be better, just like a compact paceline of 30 riders does less work than 10 riders riding two bike lengths from each other.

the problem with that model is that even in high spoke count wheels, the spokes aren't close enough to draft each other (except maybe right at the flange) so the model isn't valid in the 12-40 spoke range. it would be valid in the theoretical-but-not-realistic 500-1000 spoke range, but at that point you're basically talking about disc wheels. in coming to that conclusion i found this post by jobst brandt helpful:

https://yarchive.net/bike/wheel_drag.html

so i concede, low spoke count wheels are more aerodynamic.

you think good

That's actually pretty easy. Take a cylinder. Now take a cylinder with a tail. Which is more aero? The absense of the tail makes the cylinder less aero.

But I [generally] agree with you on the issue of spoke count.