I'd guess the metal scrappers would pull the frame long before it would reach a landfill. At least where I live, they dig through alleyways and dumpsters for metal well before the trash trucks show up. Metal = cash.

ive picked up several frames from the scrap metal yard. but thats another complicated moral issue...

The issue being the new attitude toward salvaging crappy frames from the dumpster?

This is really still going?

It may stem from my inexperience with the 'message board' community, but it completely blows my mind that a bunch of grown adults who have never met/will never meet each other in real life can go on and on arguing with each other on the internet to the point of insulting one another over an issue that may as well not even exist.

"If you take the frame, it's morally wrong. Jesus will get angry and you'll go to hell!"
"If you don't take the frame, it will sit there and rot and the 'soul' of the bike will die an unhappy death and we wouldn't want that!"
"What about 'Karma' and all that other made up hippie stuff?"
"If there's no Easter Bunny, where did all these colored eggs come from?"


The OP should do what he wants to do instead of getting a bunch of anonymous people riled up into an overly-opinionated frenzy. Why waste your time asking a bunch of people...whose opinions you could care less about in the first place...what to do?

Take the damn thing. Or not. If you feel crappy about your decision...whatever it may be...live with it and move on.

That may be true, but the OP posted the thread, which implies that he was either seeking our opinions on it, looking for validation, or trying to argue his point. He came to us, and if he doesn't like our response then that's his problem.

Are we STILL on this topic?

No one has mentioned religion or their religious beliefs, so what are you talking about?

If you dont like this thread, then dont participate. And this is called a "discussion forum" for reason -- people talk about stuff and hear differing opinions than the ones they already hold.

In other words, GTFO.

You would be surprised how persistent people can be when they're trying to rationalize doing something immoral and illegal.

Looks like this has been going on for far to long already but thought I would put in my 2 cents. Most people here are raving against taking a stripped frame locked to the rack on moral grounds. Fair enough but I would like to point out that there are actually city ordinances in some areas that prohibit leaving a bike locked to public rack for an extended amount of time. This is common on college campuses where abandoned bikes can become a real problem. Those bikes take up space which is needed and become and eye sore once they are stripped down and rusting. So around here if you leave your bike locked some where for a long time the authorities will make a note of it and they will later take your bike impound it and then sell it or give it away. So I don't think taking an abandoned bike frame is a serious crime that anyone should get all fired up about. If the owner had any respect for their belongings they would come and take care of it properly.

Also you should not be using a hack saw since that is doing it the hard way.

Who said I didn't like anything? I was simply generalizing (and exaggerating), as the majority of you people are within this thread.

My most sincere apologies for trying to keep peace by saying it's worthless to argue and insult one another. I guess your opinions are valid here in this rather public "discussion forum", while mine are not.

I don't recall saying anything negative about you personally...why must you directly lash out at me?

So... I think we have the answer now:

Most people believe that it would be wrong to take the bike.
Some others have justifications for taking it.

The original poster will do what they want regardless of what we say here.

The discussion here seems to be over. I invite you all to the post-Post party at my house for cocktail wieners and dark beer.

Cool, then we can ride home drunk and MSPaint the carnage.!

Oh of course foodstamps I forgot...

As easy as it is to say oh well just go get foodstamps... It isn't always that easy. If a single mom with one child who lives in NY makes $15,000 a year she very well might not be eligible for food stamps because she makes above the poverty threshold. However, she probably doesn't live above the living standard. So why is the poverty line below the living wage? Because the system is ****ed and doesn't isn't designed to help out poor people. So, before you go around saying that stealing can't be justified, think about how many people fall between those two thresholds that don't allow for them to get federal aid.

Also, what's the harm in a person who can't afford to feed themselves or their family to steal from a place like say Wal-mart? I would rob wal-mart dry if I had the opportunity.

I think it shows doubt in someone's personal ethics if they have to post an internet discussion justifying theft as a moral activity.

Okay, since everyone wants to talk about ethics here. And since you are all so well educated you must know about all of the famous philosophers, John Stuart Mill, Jeremey Bentham, Peter Singer, who are all utilitarian thinkers. Now I know everyone here knows what utilitarianism is, the idea that utility is morality. So ethically speaking in those regards it would be immoral and unethical to let that bike sit there and not be utilized. Hey, some deontological thinkers would say it was his duty to take the bike.

Don't talk about "ethics" and "morals". Because my point is that they are completely abstract and relative, you can use ethics and morality to justify anything. Morality doesn't exist, it is a word used to put fear in people. And yeah, maybe I'm a nihilist.

No one is debating what ethics means or whether it exists at all.

What several of us seem to be saying here - and correct me if i am wrong - is that clearly the OP had some doubt about whether or not taking the bike was the right thing to do, otherwise, why post such a discussion here? Outside of trolling I see no other explanation.

the morals behind this are interesting.

One side says what's wrong is wrong, the other says that it's okay if you know the frame has been abandoned.

which brings up the interesting point of "when is an abandoned bike really abandoned?" If it's been untouched, unmoved from the spot, if anything from a month to a year passes, it's easy to believe it's been forsakened.

One side says "let sleeping dogs lie" and the other says "free it and give it a new life". My point to the latter is why personify a set of tubes and tires, acting like it's an animal tied to a post for over a month? It may rust out there, but it's not going to get much worse then it got already.

My point to the former is when does an abandoned frame become junk? At some point in time, a harmless object laying next to a lightpost or a sign becomes garbage with no owner to claim for it. And garbage is to be removed, and hopefully, recycled as often as possible.

OP saw a bike locked up for some period of time, and the last time he saw it, it got stripped. Now, to this theoretical owner, this bike has become junk because if they have a pista it could be said they know little about track bikes or bikes in general and don't know how or don't want to build it back up, which may be the case if the bike has been left out for that long. On top of that, they didn't really lock it up well enough.

One way to see it is that someone still has to get rid of that frame at the end of the day. If OP wants it, it's garbage now.

If it comes down to whether or not the owner wanted it or not anymore, fine. But there was no way to tell. Doesn't mean you just take it because something *might* be the case.

rereading the original post, OP might as well ask the police about it, what harm could it do.

Still, 'tis much better, environmentally, to use the existing frame as a new bike, than scrap the existing frame and buy another newly constructed frame.

Yes?

Oh, and can the OP give the exact location of this frame? I'll go and take it.

Perhaps there is some logic to this argument, but does the merit of "saving" this bike trump the personal value of not stealing or taking what does not belong to you? For me, no. It's not as if you are Robin Hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor. You are just taking the bike for yourself, not for the greater good of society.

Would you rather be known as a thrifty thief, or an honest man who refused to steal even when sorely tempted? Your choice, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I just don't get it though. I have a bike addiction as bad as anyone else I know yet I still wouldn't steal this bike. I really don't understand the need to "save" a bike. I just don't see how it is enjoyable to ride a bike I didn't earn. Not even a bike, just anything. Why would you want anything you didn't earn?

And a better question, why would you want to give something to your girlfriend that you didn't earn?

I officially designate today to be the beginning of ...*music please*... STEAL A BIKE AT WILL DAY!!!

Yaaaaaaay!!!!

This has been going on since bikes were invented... but now I personally give you official moral authority to take whatever it is you like, if you see an opportunity. It's all out there for the taking, kids, and all you need to do is to not get caught. (really, this is no different from how it's always been) So, get your battery powered angle grinders ready...set...GO!

here you go OP

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...257+4294965387


cheaper than a schwinn frame of CL lolamirite?





don't steal, ****sweak son