Pardon my ignorance, but it seems to me that despite fork rake and/or head tube angle, the thing that matters most when analyzing the two is the trail. Shorter fork rake can make up for a larger head tube angle and vice versa. I guess I could go to all the websites and do the math but I am hoping someone else already has!

Basically, I am in the market for a new track frameset and want something that is "less" responsive to steering but more stable in terms of going in a straight line. The primary reason for this is because I am more interested in comfortable long distance riding than tricking around. I do however like the "skidding" aspect for fixie riding and do that quite often.

What are people's thoughts on this? Is my thinking correct or am I totally off? What are some good framesets with long trail and good for long distance riding? Perhaps even, good track bikes with relaxed geometry!?

Why not take a old road frame with horizontal drop outs and convert it?

Also i think Windsor clockwork from Bikes direct is pretty relaxed. https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/.../clockwork.htm

I don't think you're interested in a track frame.

I'm not a fixed gear guy but geom., all things bicycle interest me. I agree with these fellows; you don't want a track bike, they've very sharp handling. Hor. drop out other bikes as well as non-track originally equipt as fixed gears hold your best choices. Frame angles dictate overall stability and to some extent, handling but the for rake overall, including fork curvature will more than any other single feature mske it a "hands off" handling bike.

Okay maybe not a "track" frame but a single speed frame with horizontal drop outs. I just like the classic track look with the very thin steel tubing. I'm 6'4 and just want to find something that I can go really fast and long distances with. Comfort isnt huge but I am just assuming that a longer trail will equal a bit of a more comfy ride...

https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/.../clockwork.htm
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/.../clockwork.htm
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/.../clockwork.htm
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/.../clockwork.htm
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/.../clockwork.htm

What's your budget? I got a steel Wabi Classic, and it's a super clean, uncluttered bike, (almost no logos at all) that has nice geometry for long distance riding. And you get to spec stem, bars, cranks, and gearing when ordering.

My madison feels quite relaxed (at least with my risers on it) and the logos can easily be stripped off to leave a fully chrome bike if you like that look.

I'd recommend a san jose.
Mine literally rode it self. It was such a predictable smooth ride.
Add some bigger tires and it's supper plush.

May I suggest some reading: Urban Velo

And Dave Moultan.

I kept these articles on speed dial when I was buying a new frame--- but I was leaning the other direction.

At least spell his name right. Excellent interview with Dave Moulton here.

Any cyclocross or road-oriented frame with track ends or horizontal dropouts will do. I wouldn't go all out trying to find the slackest frame ever...something with good road-oriented geometry should suit you best.
Off the top of my head...Surly Steamroller, Cross Check, Motobecane Fantom Cross Unu, Redline 925, many BD offerings except the Kilo TT or Motobecane Pro Track. Look at IRO frames as well. There are many others. Just avoid anything described as having track geometry and you should be fine.

For what its worth, I've ridden several 100+ mile road rides on stiff, quick handing track frames, and I don't find them to be more or less comfortable than any of my road, cyclocross, or touring bikes. Having the proper bar height, cockpit length, a comfortable saddle, and the right shoe/pedal combo are more important for long-distance comfort. Geometry is secondary IMO, unless you are carrying large loads or riding on rough or technically challenging terrain..then geometry is far more important.

Where? I do not see any reference to frame geometry, trail, rake, etc....

try a time trial frame.

I didn't say there was anything about frames specs, just that it's an excellent interview from the perspective of someone with quite a bit of experience with frame building. Of particular note is his comments about comfort.

It really is a great article, whether or not it is relevant to the thread. I subscribed to his blog as well. Thanks to both of you for posting

Cool, first time I've heard of Wabi bikes. They look nice and I like the ability to add your own options. That is around my price range although I'd be willing to spend a little more on a lugged steel frame. I am big on NJS frames from Japan and have been having a hard time finding a similar type US built frame without needing to spend $1500 on a cinelli frame or something. And the japanese ones are hard to find in a 61cm frame plus cost a lot to ship. Sounds impossible to find a good 61cm thin lugged steel frame with good geometry and good steel for $600-$800

You don't want a njs frame. probably wouldn't be comfortable for any long ride.

The wabi looks like a good choice

Just read the urban velo article and ive read the moulton site. The urbanvelo site is really good and gives a new perspective to different types of singlespeed bike geometries. From reading that, I think my style is right in the middle of twitchy and stable. I'd want to be able to lean forward without the bike getting too twitchy or sluggish but I wouldnt want to be uncomfortable when I ride. I think I am even more confused now! It probably sounds like I need to just test ride a bunch of bikes before making my decision. Only problem is a lot of LBS in my area dont have 61cm bikes readily available for purchase.

I'll definitely consider it in my search. Thanks for the recommendation

I should point out that the options I mentioned are sizing options - bar width, stem length, crank length, and chainring/cog sizes. I've made a few changes to mine, but they were mostly unnecessary. It's light, smooth, and comfortable right out of the box. And while there are pretty much no brand names to be found anywhere on the bike, don't be fooled. It's tight. My girlfriend got me a Windsor The Hour from Bikesdirect around the same time. While The Hour is certainly a bargain at less than half the price, a quick ride around the block on both easily justifies spending the extra money.

I'm fortunate to have both. One is my long distance bike for hanging shiny bits I don't need off of, the other is my bad weather, bad manners, swap parts because it's so inexpensive bike.

Do you notice any difference in weight factor? The Wabi seems like it'd be lighter with its reynolds steel and the Windsor heavier being 4130. I am just assuming 4130 is heavier because I've picked up my friends KHS which is 4130 and thought is was much heavier compared to some Reynolds steel bikes ive picked up. If I am correct, what differences do you notice when riding each that could be related to weight?

Wow thanks for all the input guys. This is a great forum. Everyone has so much experience and ideas. I am probably more confused about what I want now that I've read everyones replies and sent articles but I think I now have abetter idea of what I want. I think I just might start a new thread with all my different requirements and see what suggestions come out of that. Thanks again!

The Windsor is probably about 3 pounds heavier, but it's not just the frame. The Wabi has a very light wheelset with sealed hubs. Even though I have them geared the same, you can feel a very noticeable difference with the lighter wheels. Less rotating weight means you get up to speed faster, and it handles better too. I can't explain what "lively" means when it comes to how a bike feels, but if you get a chance to ride both frame materials, the differences are readily apparent.

Go ride some bikes. If you still have questions, come back and ask.