Das Stig

nope my mistake, I mis-read your post. I could blame it on sentence structure, but instead I blame the a-a-a-a-al-cahol

Ken Cox

Durability means steel.

TIG welding produces the absolutely lightest steel frames.

However, with only a slight weight penalty, both fillet-brazed and lugged frames made of the highest quality steels, such as True Temper S3, provide the best all around performance in terms of weight, durability and frame "liveliness."

TIG welded OX Plat and 853 frames offer a very good balance of all qualities, including lightness and cost.

When money becomes the deciding factor, then TIG welded Reynolds 631 definitely offers the best return on the money.

Many semi-custom or benchmade manufacturers specialize in TIG welded 631 and TIG welded 853 frames.

853 / OX Plat: lighter, stronger, livelier, more expensive.

631: light, strong, lively, cost-effective.

I have a TIG welded OX Plat frame, and I absolutely love it.

All the above said, respected manufacturers such as Surly and Leader use 4130 steel.

People look down on 4130, but, in my mind, 4130 performs 90% as well as the high end steels, but for a fraction of the cost.

If I had it to do over, I'd get a well-made frame of a modest and inexpensive steel, and I'd put my money into good wheels, tires, and crank set.

lvleph

So you are saying Titanium isn't durable?

lvleph

Here this will end the debate about materials.

Retem

most of the people I know and have met with njs bikes walk them up and down 17th street and hardly ever ride them but yeah they make nice fashion accessories and believe it or not most njs frames are not that much lighter than an iro.

hamish5178

hahahahaha, exactly. People need to hop off your nuts.

LupinIII

titanium is hard to work with. it's easy to overcook a weld that will lead to cracked joints. Titanium cracking seems to be very common (I looked into it when my lynskey spontaneously split down the top tube. never crashed, never clamped. just one day saw it was cracked the length of the tube. consensus is poorly formed tube)

was about to say, my peloton is not much lighter than an iro. it built up to ~18.5lbs, while friends with TK2s or pista concepts are around 16 and change

lvleph

That would be considered a manufacturing flaw, not a flaw in the material itself.

Ken Cox

Titanium, in the hands of a skilled welder, represents the most durable frame material.

Some people consider titanium the best bicycle frame material.

When designed with stiffness and efficiency in mind, titanium frames match the virtues of steel frames, with more comfort; and, although this requires a titanium frame made purposely heavier, this type of frame will still weigh less than a comparable steel frame.

My dream frame, money no object: fillet brazed True Temper S3.

Second choice: TIG welded True Temper OX Plat (which I ride now).

I've never ridden a titanium frame and I base my comments on what I've read.

If I ever have the opportunity to ride a titanium frame, titanium might replace filllet brazed S3 as my dream frame material; and, then again, it might not.

bentchamber

really, you are a true temper guy?

reynolds 953 is the ****, because it has all the properties of the highest end steel tubings, but is stainless and way more resistent to denting. And it rides like a dream. If I was going to get a custom frame to last me a lifetime, it would be out of 953.

853 and many other high end thin walled tubings are prone to rusting, so if you aren't careful a little bit of surface rust (on the outside or inside of a frame) can lead to major damage

Ken Cox

I haven't ridden a 953 frame.

The tubing has all the qualities bentchamber describes, and it has silly-strong numbers (255-290 KSI) compared to its closest competitors, True Temper S3 (150-217 KSI) and Reynolds 853 (180-210 KSI).

I've spent many hours at Dave Anderson's site looking at his 953 frames:

https://www.andersoncustombicycles.com/

Dave will make a frame set for me, or you, for around $2800.

Add stainless lugs to match the stainless 953, and the price starts to get daunting.

Nonetheless, worth every cent.

From Desperado Cycles:

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"I started on my first 95(3) project with an open mind and began working with the tubing. After a course of a week I began to find that the workability was a bit tedious. After 40 hours of mitering with the joint jigger and using almost three bastard files I was ready to do my silver fillet brazing. Normally, I would use a torch tip size of .05 running 5lbs of pressure on each side of the oxygen and propane tanks. Due to the thin-walled of the Reynolds® 953 tubing I resorted to the .00 tip. This made working for flame rather slow and difficult. I found that working the flame for four hours at a time resulted in a bit of the nerve racking ordeal.

I believe that what we have here is an effort on Reynolds® part to provide a very high quality material for frame building. I find questionable if 953 is suitable for this. Note I said bicycle frame building. True Temper® offers their S-3 tubing that basically has the same mechanical attributes of the 953 tubing only without the stainless steel benefits. Although more difficult to work with than the Platinum series tubes, it is still easier to work with than the 953. Applying JC Wiggles® frames saver inside the tubes of a S-3 frame should deter any corrosion considerations for lifetime of the owner. The ride quality of True Temper’s® S-3 tubing is by far one of the most desirable riding experiences I have ever been on. I would expect the same for Reynolds® 953 if you choose the same tubing configuration. It is just not a very workable experience for the frame builder. This in turn creates a cost factor for the extra time involved and then leads one to believe that may be the expense may not be worth it.

If you are looking for a truly unique bicycle frame within impeccable ride where work cost is not an object and corrosion is a consideration, then the Reynolds® 953 might fit your bill. (no pun intended)."

https://desperadocycles.com/Reynolds_...le_Tubing.html

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Reynolds also requires an expensive whole-frame heat treatment at the completion of the frame fabrication.

Other than costing a lot of money, the difficulty of working with 953 has no down side for the rider.

Further, I have searched for descriptions of tube shapes for Reynolds 953, and I can't find any.

As for True Temper S3, it comes in a remarkable choice of tube shapes and sizes, including a gorgeous bi-oval downtube.

I've read, recently, that True Temper has had some financial issues (not related with their bicycle tubing but with other aspects of their business), and True Temper may no longer present an option.

953 has had some availablity issues in the past, but I don't know if that remains the case.

This leaves Columbus Life tubing, which has numbers similar to Reynolds 853 and True Temper S3, and which has shaped top and down tubes (but no bi-oval down tube).

I don't particularly care for shaped tubes, apart from bi-oval down tubes, and so that leaves 853 as the most available tubing.

Both titanium and 953 remain valid and preferred options for a "dream frame," if one can afford the price premium for the skill and technology required to manufacture frames made of these materials.

All the above said, I find myself tending these days to believe that wheels, tires and crank set matter more than frame and frame material (assuming the frame fits and has appropriate geometry to its use).