hey ya look up the term, look up the word history. it comes from the socialist philosophy way before the ramifiactions of chaos.

look up the term? where, in a dictionary? that tells me (essentially) squat. it doesn't tell me how the concept is realized by real people living lives that have something to do with that concept. concepts are created by people who have a use for categorizing actions, beliefs, objects, etc. i have a concept of what "nachos" is--your concept of "nachos" is probably different. what does the dictionary say? who cares? same with democracy. same with anarchism.

the concept(s) of anarchism that many ararchists today espouse is/are similar to the concept(s) that anarchists of 100 years ago espoused (yeah, what alexi said). what does the "actual definition" have to say about that?

Seriously, I can't figure out this analogy.
I imagine if we lived in an anarchist society, and someone was selling widgets, everyone would laugh and say;"he's just taking advantage of his freedom to do whatever he wants to sell stuff, what a hypocrite!" If you want to make the world a better place, you have to do it within the confines of the real world, that's just reality. It seems like the word "hypocrite" is the only ammunition that apathetic Wal-Martians have, in my opinion. Did I pay money for some of the things I own? Yep. Did I get a lot of it second hand? Yep. Do I sometimes throw recyclables in the trash absentmindedly? Yep. Am I a hypocrite? Maybe, but I DON'T CARE! I'lll keep doing what I think is right.

I perfectly understand what a 'concept' or an 'idea' is - I deal with them for a living. Now go read my second and third sentences.

I read the whole post, and i wasn't trying to expound on your friend's (bad) metaphor, just some thoughts that came to mind. Put the knife down...

I was replying to Habitus, sorry. And it's not a knife, it's a Boomerang.

Hey look! Anarchy is defined thusly by Merriam Webster. Notice how it links to a seperate definition for "anarchism". This is kind of like when these young whippersnappers call each other "cool", but really mean hip, not cold. The word has more than one meaning!

This is even cooler, though. An honest-to-gosh anarrchist dojo!

i read your whole paragraph.

in sentence #2, you contrast a "self-defined modernist definition" with "the actual definition." where does one find this "actual definition" of anarchism? they only "defintion" that has any relevance to anarchists is the one that includes autonomy and egalitatarianism as critical attributes of anarchism. so what's the (your) "actual definition"?

in sentence #3, you say that there's "nothing anarchistic about being a humanist with idealistic philosophies." ok. i agree. however, i think there's certainly something humanistic about being an anarchist (and what philosophy isn't based on ideals?).

Good job, Thylacine. I knew you was in for some trouble when you opened this can of worms. And for what it's worth, anarchists has always been idealists. But then I mean that in the way Marx meant it, so that's probably not got a lot of mileage in it with those folks.

The 'actual definition' thalycine describes is def1B mentioned in that dictionary reference; "a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority", because it suits his buddy's definition, as opposed to 1a and 1c which are alot less politically loaded. It's this definition, the sid vicious type of anarchist, that is used to discredit more traditional arachism. I highly doubt that early anachist thinkers had in mind violent lawlessness and gutterpunks. Maybe Thalycine knows a few of these people, which is how he is privy to the 'real' definition. For him to suggest that the circle a definition is a "self-defined modernist definition" is just plain wrong. Circle A shouldn't be ashamed to use the word Anarchist to describe themself just because it's been co-opted by a-holes and redefined by the elite as dangerous. That would just be letting the terrorists win!


This whole argument is like arguing over philosophical communism vs practiced communism (soviet union, china, etc.) - which was in fact more of a state capitalism. It's a useless exercise. Even though the Soviets described themselves as communists, they weren't, but capitalists will always be able to point to them to discredit communism, even though it's never really been tried on a large scale.

And really, circleA make great looking bikes. And that's what we should get back to.

thechamp, really good post.
you summed up what i was going to say.
someone said that anarchism was so far right it is far left? i see anarchism as more of a 'no wing' politics, since it dismisses politics all together. In spain in the 30's (get yer beards out) anarchism was truely in action, people took control on their workplaces, for example, the tram system was run by the CNT, and the trams were incidently 40% more efficient. the communists were finding it impossible to work with the CNT because they wouldnt accept orders from people with higher ranks, the organised in collectives, and were actually much more effective as a team because they didnt have to wait for orders, they all worked it out between themselves.
thats more like anarcho syndacalism. anarchism today takes many forms, and anarchists are even pretty split between themselves, you get primitavists who want the end of civialisation, you get anarcho communists who want to organise in their workplace, you get trendy anarchists who want to open coffee bars the use anarchism to sell coffee, you get eco action activists, you get 'crimethinc' anarchists (lets say the new romantic anarchists) who swan around dumpster diving...they all slag each other off, for example primitavists are hippys and crimethinc people are lifestylists.
my point is that at the end of the day, they are all working towards the same thing...more or less. Anarchism isnt far right (although there is such a thing as anarcho capitalism....the free market, but lets not go into that), its full of different diverse ideas. circle a cycles look like they are doing a real great thing,
as the champ said, the bikes are the most important thing, as people interests bring many different types of people together, im sure we have so many different views on this forum yet we all talk bikes.
and more importantly, circle a have design skills. i love their website!

You mean Duran Duranarchists? champ, onelesscar, I couldn't have said it better.

I think Circle A cycles are great. I think what they are doing is great and one day I hope to get a frame from them. Their fix frames are sweet. Anyone have one? How does it hold up?

Now to the off topic that I know I should not get involved in. Anarchism is not Right Wing. I think you are thinking of Libertarianism. Libertarians are like Anarchist, but they like Capitalism and an actual free market. I think what was trying to be said before was that a group of folks trying to produce goods for people using an Anarchist model within a Capitalist system will fail balls out. Unless they were able to really build bikes from scratch, i.e. dig up iron, manufacture steel, etc. After the revolution, Circle A will rock it the way they really want to. So lay off.

I wish I could remember who said it, maybe someone can help me. “I’m a Marxist so we can all be Anarchist.”

Even though I studied political theory, I like what Bukoski wrote about politics. The essay was called “Politics is like Trying to Screw a Cat in the Ass.’ I think what he was trying to say is that neither are things he desires to be involved with.

thechamp,

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you are a dumbass.

Last I heard, Vanilla's waiting list was about a year long...

Anarchy Burger!

What is this CNT, which you all speak of?

Labramatt I have to agree with you. Calling someone's education worthless because he holds a differing opinion is the intellectual equivalent of 'yo mamma'.

HOLD THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!

I don't thhink we're allowed to criticize anarchist framebuilders until we finally rid ourselves of all the anarcho-poseur pop punk bands who make ****loads of money beacuse singing about hating the government is cool right now.

tim

oh, and the CNT is an anarcho-syndicalist group in europe which faught the facists in the Spanish Civil War. I haven't really read a whole lot on them. I got bogged down in the first 3 chapters of Beevor's "The Spanish Civil War".
I know they're still around. I marched with them when I was in paris last year. Don't know what the march was about b/c I don't speak french. Today they seem a lot like the RCP (revolutionary communist party) and the Sparticusts (sp?), more interested in selling newspapers than really doing much of anything in local communities.

tim

Nice.

Cool. Thanks Tim.

I live about 15 minutes away from there. I have been there a couple of times just to look around.

A friend of mine Bought a touring bike frame and fork with cantilever bosses for about $700 I believe.
He built it up with an Ultegra triple with LX rear cassette and derailleur.

Compared to my Jamis Aurora steel RSX equipped touring bike. Which is 26 lbs.
His is 23 lbs. !!

Here are some photos..

https://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dad029...jwrdCByQj57UBb

timarchy, read orwells 'homage to catalonia' about the CNT, its really easy to read and you learn stuff