clarry

Hello everyone. After riding SPD-SL for a few years, I just recently
decided to try SPD as it seemed like the double-sided entry and "noseless"
cleat would be easier to use in start-stop traffic (i.e. in the city). So I bought
the PD-M520s (or was it 540?) with M088s. With these, clipping in and out
is indeed a lot easier.

But the shoes I find disappointing. They're quite walkable alright, and they
ride just fine on the flat streets. Cranking furiously uphill though, these shoes
flex, a lot. Not so much when you pedal down, but I really need to be able to
pull up as well. As it is the flexiness just feels horrible and I end up making my
foot vertical (with toes pointing straight down) on the upstroke to avoid the
flexing, but needless to say it's really awkward...

So SPD is nice and I'm looking to buy better shoes. I don't have a strict budget,
and I don't mind paying for quality shoes provided that they can be expected
to last long. Of course if good shoes can be had for few monies, that's fine too.

On a local board I found that SIDI Dominators are popular, but I also found an
alarmingly high number of complaints about durability: buckle breaking, sole
wearing quickly, sole separating, etc. They're also said to be slippery, but
it's hard to tell if that's only an issue on rocky trails or such.

What else have we got?

My criteria are roughly as follows:
* stiff enough so I can ride up hills on a single speed or fixed gear :-)
* but it surely needn't be the stiffest shoe in the world..
* lugged and/or treaded so I can walk around town without slipping or ruining shop floors (or soles)
* a buckled strap system would be nice, but if there's an otherwise superb shoe without this, I'll take a look at it :-)
* price doesn't really matter, but if it's expensive, then it really should be durable too
* I don't like waste and landfills so durability would be nice even if the shoe is cheap :-)

I guess talking about fit isn't really useful as it's very subjective. In any case I think
my foot is fairly normal, and I've always adjusted even if the shoes I've had haven't
been "perfect fit".

Style isn't really a big issue either. I mean most cycling shoes look silly, but so do I.
Features/performance should come first... style is secondary.

Thanks. :-)

prooftheory

I'm pretty sure you aren't going to be thrilled with anything. If you really want a stiff shoe then you will have to go with a road shoe. You could try doubling up and using a pedal that also has straps. Track guys sometimes do this for high torque redundancy. The other thing you might consider is having a lighter ratio. You really shouldn't be having to pull with that much force. I can look up the studies if you want but it turns out that efficient riding doesn't involve any pulling but that the foot retention is there to keep the foot on the pedal when it isn't applying force.

clarry

Efficiency with regards to what? What are the variables? I've heard
about these studies.

But when you're doing a steep climb and can't shift down, you need
peak power (or you come to a halt and walk), not peak efficiency...

When your body weight isn't enough to force the pedal down, you
need other body parts to help. You pull up on the handle bars. You
can also pull up with the other leg. I do both, and personal experience
suggests that the other leg plays an important part. Shoe flex is a good
indication of this, as is the fact that I have a much harder time climbing
up these hills with platform pedals (because I can't pull up with the other
leg).

I think my ratio is fine; it gives a comfortable speed and cadence on flat
streets. If anything, I'd like to experiment with a higher ratio and get
accustomed to going a little bit faster.

Are you suggesting there are no differences in stiffness between SPD
shoes? Or are you saying my other criteria cannot be met with stiffer
SPD shoes? I've seen plenty of people claim that e.g. Specialized
shoes are usually much stiffer than SIDIs.

prooftheory

What I'm saying is that I have never worn mountain bike shoes that I thought I would find stiff enough to be worthwhile. Your requirements seem to be pretty high so I'm not sure that they will be satisfied. I haven't gone out and tried on mountain shoes in a long while though.

seau grateau

I ride Shimano M300s and they are stiff as hell. Full carbon sole and whatnot. Pretty pricey too though, I think. I bought mine for $50 from a guy who bought them and left them in the box for a year.

gregjones

That's when I want a nice bit of flex in a shoe so that the walk to the top of the hill is more comfortable.

hairnet

Yep. I get by on my basic Lake mountain bike shoes without issues but I may do things very different than you. Go try out shoes at different shops and see what feels best.

Jandro 

Lake and Sidi make some amazing spd shoes. The Dominator is especially awesome/stiff.

hockeyteeth

You're saying that they are stiff while pedaling with downward pressure, but noticeably flexible while pulling up? The curvature of the sole would provide the opposite effect. I mean, take your shoes in your hand and try alternatively flexing them in opposite directions. They should be way harder to flex in the direction you are claiming to notice. I find my worn-out Shimano M087s to be more than adequately stiff.

Anyway, as others mentioned, carbon-soled shoes are marginally stiffer. Or you could try wooden-soled shoes:

seau grateau

^^ Good point. Could be a stretchy upper, weak enclosure, or just wearing shoes too loose? My cycling shoes are at least a half size smaller than my walkin' around shoes for this reason.

sinikl

sexxxy.

hairnet

The only old school leather shoes I have discovered that I could possibly wear are occupied by the C&V guru at the co-op. Maybe one day he will let me try them.

clarry

The sole is definitely flexy. I just tried flexing it by hand -- flexing it up is easy. Flexing down is somewhat harder. I don't know if the sole is somehow stiffer downwards, or maybe the rest of the shoe helps it resist change of shape in that direction.

prooftheory

I'm having a really hard time picturing the direction of flex that people are talking about. When clarry says that they flex, I am assuming that he means that the rear of the shoe is flexing up while the front remains horizontal, i.e. concave with respect to the foot. It seems like hockeyteeth is expecting the flex to go the other way - convex with respect to the foot. But I may be misinterpreting either of them.

I have also completely lost any intuition about what I expect should happen. If you keep your ankle at a constant angle and pull up, it seems like you should get convex flex, whereas if you keep your toes at a constant angle you would get concave flex. Since you are going to have to engage your ankles in all situations it must be the convex flex that we are worried about, right?

TejanoTrackie 

Those shoes are completely worthless on clipless pedals, because upward forces are supposed to be resisted by the pedal strap, not the shoe upper. This is why modern shoes intended for use with clipless pedals have built-in straps and the rearmost strap has a ratcheting mechanism of some kind.

clarry

Well, that got me thinking. The sole is fixed only at the cleat/pedal and via the straps and shoe upper, all of which are to the front of the shoe. There should be no substantial force applied at the very rear of the sole (under heel), it's just floating along. So there should be no sole flex on the upstroke. So while the sole is definitely flexier than on my road shoe, this shouldn't be the cause of my grief. Stretchy upper and bad straps? I'm still open to specific shoe suggestions.

b-ride

Why not hit a few of the your LBSes, talk to the staff, try on a few and see what you like? Hands on with different shoes is going to be miles more helpful than internet chatter, no matter how well intentioned.

hairnet

I know. I am just curious to try those old shoes and pedals for one ride.

clarry

I would love to, I really would. As it is, my LBS is a sports utility store that also happens to sell bikes, along with a small selection of grossly overpriced entry level components & accessories. The staff down there is one oldish guy who comes across more as a salesman than an experienced cyclist.

b-ride

I see your dilemma. Good luck.