XShifter

MTSeymours comments are great. This is exactly the type of constructive criticism that we need to improve the product. We are already addressing the mounting issue and will make an announcement soon. It will be very appealing and ease almost everyone's concerns.

Ergonomics is also a valid concern. But, the prototype is just one example. We have also developed a unique Road remote that is very ergonomic and allows access to the buttons while maintaining a firm grip on the hood or the bar. We are working on several different styles of remote. Because it's just a push button, we aren't restricted by mechanical issues. We have the freedom to make almost any style of ergonomics we want. Already I've got customers that want to design and 3D print their own custom remote brackets. We have quite by accident realized this style of remote is invaluable to people with disability or amputees. Its the perfect solution for handcycles for example.

We are working on shifting speed, it will be much faster before going to production. Unfortunately, that video does not demonstrate the front shifting very well. We have other videos with XShifter installed on a SRAM Red system, and it performs amazing. Shifting is actually faster going to small gears because it uses the return spring to its advantage. Yes, if the derailleur gets clogged with dirt or mud, it will be a problem, so this product might not be for everyone. If you're riding in super rough conditions where the bike is getting caked with mud, then maybe you shouldn't be using electronics.

No one product fits everyone. This is just another option. We have launched on Kickstarter, and reached our funding goal in only 2 days, so must be doing something right.

mtseymour

I agree that it's difficult to make a component that will suit everyone. However, it's reasonable to assume that an electric shifting system will be waterproof, and can survive rough roads and bumpy off-road trails (like Ultegra Di2 or XTR Di2).

However, I should correct my statement about the Bowden cable in the XShifter. The Bowdent cable dates back to the early 1900s, and can push AND pull. It seems that the XShifter's Bowden cable is strong and precise enough for 8 or 9 sp drivetrains. But can the XShifter handle the tight spacing of a 10 or 11sp system under pull power? An updated video with a Red 11sp drivetrain would be informative.

What about the gear jump from a 11-32 or 11-40 cassette, or a road crankset with a big gaps (50-34T, 30-42-53T)?

Does a XShifter use a lithium or Ni-Cd battery? Can the front battery safely survive a rock strike or crash?

XShifter

Probably advertising and self promotion not allowed on this forum, so I'll just finish up with a couple things.

Here is video of shifting 11 speed: Precision:
The system is very waterproof. The battery and electronics compartments are completely sealed. We will be making all the plastic parts from carbon fiber reinforced nylon. It's a special grade of nylon that is incredibly strong. It will work with any size cassette or chain ring. We've added some really unique features to it. Such as automatic cross chain avoidance, or any other gear can be locked out. So you can install a much wider range of gears than you normally could with mechanical shifters, then just lockout the problem gears to avoid damage or chain drop. I rode an eTap and XShifter on the very same bike and drivetrain. There is no difference in riding perception. Both are doing the same job, but in a very different way. Personally, I prefer the ergo of the new XShifter road remote. I never got used to the paddle shifters on eTap. Too often I would get the timing wrong and shift the front by accident.

racefacelefty

I have backed XShifter on KickStarter to install on my road racing tandem.

My reasons are all logical to me. Cost and recycling.

Di2 to suit my tandem would set me back around $1,400 without changing the cranks but going for hydraulic brake shifters, XTR 3x FD, junction box, RD, 11 speed chain and cassette. Red eTap with Hydro is not released yet and will maybe be $2,000.

I have made a huge investment in groupsets over the years which have largely sat in a box once something new is released. As I build my own bikes I will always try find a use for quality by old parts. I have various bits of perfectly good Red, Force and Ultergra kit waiting to find a home.

A triple on my tandem makes sense as top end and bottom end speeds vary more than on a road bike or a 29er. But triple shifting can be a night mare, particularly with longer cables.

So when I saw XShifter I ran a few numbers, both gearing and dollars.

I can keep my 10 speed 30-39-52 triple, pull out a near new Red 10 speed 11-25 cassette, a mechanical RD and FD, remove the shifters from the brake levers, install 2 XShifter units to work the dérailleurs with a cable throw of maybe 150mm max and lose all long cable runs and the lack of precision that brings.

All for $300.

So what if it is not exactly the same as Di2 or eTap? I can build a new set of wheels for the difference in price. Which would make a far bigger difference to my riding than slightly crisper shifting.

XShifter

Racefacelefty, thanks for your trust in us. You won't be disappointed. We feel very strongly that this product is going to be very successful. Overall the support from the cycling industry has been overwhelming.

kek

Is it possible to limit triple xtr di2 by software (synchroshift map) or hardware so it will use only 2 chainrings?

mtseymour

Yes. The Shimano websites makes it clear that XTR Di2 and the new XT Di2 can handle "1x11, 2x11 - or even if you still love your 3x11 drivetrain."

I expect that the XT Di2 with 2x11 will be the most popular configuration.

XShifter

racefacelefty has only touched on this. This product allows you to do things that were impossible before. I've had conversations with guys that are talking about making custom cassettes. Maybe even a 13 speed. Shave down the spacers a little and squeeze an extra gear in. Make an 11 speed out of a 10, and still use your 10 speed derailleur. It's not about being as good or better than etap and DI2, it's about doing other things they cant do.

7VEN

Here's my tourer running 9070 DA and R785 shifters.

mtseymour

Nice! What kind of cranks are you using?

7VEN

Thanks! They're Rotor Flows. There's a custom spider that sits inboard of the small ring that the cog for the belt attaches to.

twocicle

I'm not sure that answer is correct. Shimano sells a specific 2x Di2 FD to handle that setup and a 3x for a triple.

I am using the Di2 XTR triple + latest e-tube software and have not seen any way to limit the 3x FD to only 2 rings. The software recognizes the triple as... a triple, only.

If you try to tune out one of the triple shifts using "hardware" (limit screws) that will conflict with any electronic shift attempt to that gear and result in bad things like draining the battery (FD keeps trying to shift into that gear) or possibly worse (burn out a motor?). If you want a 2x then you must get the 2x FD.

Di2 XTR RD is universal (1x, 2x or 3x) but again you need to determine your total gear tooth range and get the RD with the appropriate capacity (SGS/long cage is typical for tandem).

twocicle

This deserves a new thread and more photo close-ups.

mtseymour

You're right. I should have been more clear that the hardware must be compatible with the E-Tube software. Once the M9070 front derailleur is connected to the rest of Di2 components, the E-Tube software will know that it's a 2x11 setup. I suspect that the M9050 (triple) front derailleur will be sub-par in a 2x11 drivetrain even if you can hack the software (due to cage profile).

geoffs

Just noticed that SRAM have uploaded an installation video for a WiFLi mid-cage eTap rear derailleur. This is rated to cope with cassettes of up to 32 size cog vs the short cage which is rated to a 28. I noticed that House of Tandems was modifying the eTap rear derailleurs to this configuration.
So now with the new mid-cage derailleur and a Wolftooth Roadlink a 11-40 cassette should be no problems. eTap is getting more and more tempting :-)

Chris_W

eTap might be tempting if you didn't need two hands to control the front derailleur and two hands to control the rear derailleur in both directions. Electronic shifting is supposed to make shifting easier, not require more hands to do the same job as before. I'll stick with my Shimano Di2, thanks, a few wires don't bother me.

Just like with SRAM DoubleTap mechanical shifters, the strange eTap ergonomics were only chosen so that SRAM could avoid all of Shimano's patents, not because the setup is better ergonmically. They put some marketing buzz on it to make it sound good, but IMHO SRAM road lever ergonomics (mechanical and electronic) are terrible compared to the competition.

kek

OK, I will be using triple FD (FD-M9050) with triple crankset, but I want to try 3x11 with GS RD and road cassette

Is it possible to enable 3x11 synchroshift with GS XTR/XT RD? I will respect 35T total capacity of GS RD :

rear cap=(44-26)+(28-11)=35 & front diff=18 - i.e. front and rear capacity within official limits
rear cap=(44-24)+(28-11)=37 & front diff=20 - i.e. front capacity+2, rear capacity+2
rear cap=(48-28)+(28-11)=37 & front diff=20 - i.e. front capacity+2, rear capacity+2
rear cap=(48-28)+(26-11)=35 & front diff=20 - i.e. front capacity+2, rear capacity within official limit

racefacelefty

Pray, do tell what you are doing with your other hand that makes pushing a button so hard? The right for easier, left for harder, both for crank is just so logical to me.

I prefer the SRAM levers, both Hydro and mechanical, with or without eTap, to Shimano levers. We all have personal preferences.

Dean V

+1.
I was a sceptic of the Sram double tap system but had never owned it.
Got Sram Red on one of my bikes a year ago and like it to use at least as much as Shimano and Campag.
It was also more intuitive than I thought it would be and didn't take any time to get used to.
Actually I have found that Di2 has taken the longest for me to adapt to out of all the systems.

geoffs

I actually work as the bike mechanic at Steve Hogg's small shop. We only sell Passoni and Seven custom frames although advice is given on the purchase of off-the-shelf bikes from other shops to meet customers various budget constraints. Cheapest groupset I normally work on would be Ultegra so it's a bit of a sheltered workshop.
So I assemble, test ride and service Sram, Shimano and Campagnolo all the time. All of our personal bikes are all Shimano so that's what I'm used to for riding. Riding Sram though is no problem at all and if I was building a bike today I'd most probably install Sram.
I really like Sram these days, ever since they brought out the YAW front derailleur.
The levers really only take a couple of rides to get used to and once you get used to setting up the front derailleur it's most probably the easiest to set up. Campagnolo being second and Shimano's new mechanical front derailleur being the worst.
YMMV

mtseymour

On my single, Sram Red worked as well as my Ultegra or Dura Ace. From my experience with Ultegra Di2 and Dura Ace Di2, I would expect Sram eTap to work equally well. Shimano's advantage is that it will extend the synchronized (or sequential) shifting feature from XTR Di2 to Dura Ace/Ultegra Di2 in 2017. I think that this feature will really simplify shifting, especially on a tandem.

According to Sram, eTap won't do sequential shifting because "the rider always controls the front derailleur." I suspect that Sram can't get around patent restrictions.

twocicle

Preorder your Dura Ace 9170 Di/hydro lever kit (1 lever, hose, caliper, pads) now from Chainreaction for only $659.99/per (which means x2). Wiggle is $622.

According to one prelim price list, current costs are higher by some $50-75/ea.

mtseymour

Good info.

I'm glad that the ST-R9170 Di2 shifter will lighter than the R785 shifters (approx 360g to 510g per pair). I hope that R9170 shifters will be slimmer too.

The downside is that the ST-R9170 shifter/brake bundle won't be compatible with most tandems. The rear hydraulic hose will be too short, and most tandem frames and forks are not equipped with the flat brake mount. Most frames will continue to use brake calipers with post mounts (eg. Shimano R785, Saint).

I assume that the Dura Ace R9170 shifters will soon be available as a stand-alone item that can be used with a longer tandem hose (eg. Goodridge) and various Shimano post-mount brakes.

Any news on the new Di2 battery and Junction A boxes?

akexpress 

The new battery is available and I have the new XT front display and I am just getting ready to build up my new Calfee adventure frame with XTR triple and road levers and RS785 brakes

twocicle

There was an article posted earlier this year which showed the new 9xxx shifters (regardless of mech or hydro) are slimmer and lighter than the <2017 Dura Ace Di2 shifters.

Rear hose length will seldom be a deciding factor in buying the kit/bundle. You can always get longer hose purchased separately.

I'm not experienced with direct mount calipers, but I suspect using these on non-direct mount frames may be done with conversion adapters - either replacing our current post or IS mount adapters with direct mount adapters or (yuck) adding the latter. Much like what is shown and described here. Anyone with a definitive on this?

Maybe an answer to my own question above... from this article:
Well, if the flat mount rear caliper can only be mounted to flat mount compatible frames and no adapter to allow non-flat mount frames... Shimano is not going to sell a ton of these. I'm guessing some of us will mix and match calipers... flat mount for the front/fork (better heat management w/high temp pads) and non-direct calipers for the rear.