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No fronk rack, just rear rack 20kg(44lbs) to much?

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No fronk rack, just rear rack 20kg(44lbs) to much?

Old 10-15-16, 06:05 AM
  #1  
azza_333
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No fronk rack, just rear rack 20kg(44lbs) to much?

The rack is a TUBUS so I know it can handle it, I'm more talking about stability.




-Is a total of 20kg(44lbs) on the rear rack to much?
-Can an Ortlieb pannier's clips support 10kg(22lbs)?


-Alternatively if 20kg(44lbs) is to much, would 15kg(33lbs) be ok?
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Old 10-15-16, 06:08 AM
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Do you need to take that much weight?

If you do, the bike won't handle great but it will be rideable. People do tours with all the weight on the back. The bike handles better though if you distribute the weight over front and rear racks. If carrying that much weight, I strongly encourage you to invest in front racks and bags.
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Old 10-15-16, 06:36 AM
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obvious answer is to pile the stuff into the panniers and take the bike for a ride, then decide after that. It's not really for us to answer.
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Old 10-15-16, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Do you need to take that much weight?

If you do, the bike won't handle great but it will be rideable. People do tours with all the weight on the back. The bike handles better though if you distribute the weight over front and rear racks. If carrying that much weight, I strongly encourage you to invest in front racks and bags.


Its 2 peoples worth of stuff, 20kg will be more likely 15kg, but I though I would say 20kg just in case.


I actually already have a front rack and 2nd pair of panniers, but I don't wont the hassle of more panniers and a front rack, when I can fit it all the just the rear panniers and a trunk bag.
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Old 10-15-16, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
obvious answer is to pile the stuff into the panniers and take the bike for a ride, then decide after that. It's not really for us to answer.


My bike is still probably a month away from being finished, so I am just after base knowledge to go off, of course once the kit is built I will test it.
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Old 10-15-16, 07:06 AM
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way too many variables...

what bike, what length chainstays,
how well packed, how bulky,
how much do you weight, etc....

just load up and try it out.
might be acceptable for you.
if you don't like it, move some
onto the front rack.

if only 15kg, should be okay.
i usually have about 5kg in each
pannier on the rear, then add one
or two 1.5L bottles of water along
the way....so 12-13 kg, with 3-4
kg in handlebar bag.

Last edited by saddlesores; 10-15-16 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 10-15-16, 07:12 AM
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I've always been fine with all my gear (including a guitar) on the rear rack, except for a handlebar bag... but miles vary
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Old 10-15-16, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by azza_333 View Post
Its 2 peoples worth of stuff, 20kg will be more likely 15kg, but I though I would say 20kg just in case.


I actually already have a front rack and 2nd pair of panniers, but I don't wont the hassle of more panniers and a front rack, when I can fit it all the just the rear panniers and a trunk bag.
Bottom line is that the bike will handle significantly better if you run panniers front and rear particularly with low riders. I've toured extensively both ways and the difference is significant. If you own the gear to run front bags, just use it.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:39 AM
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There's also the point that with 4 panniers you're not rooting around as much as with 2. tent in 1, food in another, clothes in another. So your not pulling out as much stuff to get to what's at the bottom of that pannier.
My gear wt, without panniers, is about 10 kg. I'm gonna go with 4 small panniers and a trunk bag for food & misc, no hbar bag.
I'll let you know about it next weekend.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
obvious answer is to pile the stuff into the panniers and take the bike for a ride, then decide after that. It's not really for us to answer.
And may I add, try riding up some steep hills because if you ever stand to pedal with that much of a rear-only load, it's easy for your front wheel to actually lift up and off the road. Also make sure you're not going to have "shimmy" problems on down hills as well. Otherwise, yea, people do it all the time but it's not really optimal depending on how stiff your rear triangle is.
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Old 10-15-16, 10:16 AM
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see Ian Hibell
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Old 10-15-16, 10:37 AM
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It really depends on the bike.

And how far back the panniers are. You would want very little heel clearance with the panniers set as far forward as practical. Farther back and the bike would have a bad case of tail wagging the dog syndrome. A friend of mine uses a Titanium bike with rear panniers only, he found that the shimmy was reduced greatly by putting the panniers as far forward as possible.

Ortlieb hooks, I would trust them for that weight. But they might bend a bit, so you might lose the little inserts in them that are used to fit the hooks to different diameter tubing. I switched to using PVC tubing over my Tubus tubes, see photo.

If I recall correctly, you have a bikepacking setup. It might handle better if you use your under-saddle bag instead of a rack top trunk bag, as that would take the weight off the rack and move the weight further forward. Or use your frame bag instead of a rack top bag.

Regarding my comment that it would depend on the bike, my expedition bike has a very solid steel frame and it would easily handle twice the weight you are talking about on the rear without any problem. But my rando bike has a light weight steel frame and it would probably handle like a wet noodle at 20 kg on the rear rack.

Chain stay length will probably be a factor too. Shorter chainstays would put the added weight center of gravity well behind the hub.
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Old 10-16-16, 09:57 PM
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It's a totally a self preference thing. I like have most of my weight in the front but others like it in the back.

45 lbs in the back might just work for you. I would try to a least a little bit of weight on the fork by strapping your water bottles or fuel or something like that
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Old 10-17-16, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Ortlieb hooks, I would trust them for that weight. But they might bend a bit, so you might lose the little inserts in them that are used to fit the hooks to different diameter tubing.
If you are using the inserts, I would order extra from Ortlieb or Wayne. I took the panniers off my bike and saw one of the inserts laying on the ground. When I get around to it, I may get some of the clear tubing and try that out around the rack. As it is now, I shim the rack with some electrical tape to make the fit tighter.

I also put a piece of electrical tape between the hook and the track it slides on; mine had a bit of play in it. That's probably my only problem with the bags, seems as though Ortlieb bags would fit the Tubus racks perfectly. Maybe they leave things loose in case you get a bunch of dirt in them?

Do you know the exact size of tubing you are using & where did you get it?

As far as the topic of this thread, I like running 4 panniers. I keep one of the front bags just for smelly items such as toothpaste, sunscreen and food. That way I can hang that bag up in a tree or somewhere to keep the critters out of my tent and the smells out of the other 3 bags.

Last edited by jonc123; 10-17-16 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 10-17-16, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jonc123 View Post
If you are using the inserts, I would order extra from Ortlieb or Wayne. I took the panniers off my bike and saw one of the inserts laying on the ground. When I get around to it, I may get some of the clear tubing and try that out around the rack. As it is now, I shim the rack with some electrical tape to make the fit tighter.

I also put a piece of electrical tape between the hook and the track it slides on; mine had a bit of play in it. That's probably my only problem with the bags, seems as though Ortlieb bags would fit the Tubus racks perfectly. Maybe they leave things loose in case you get a bunch of dirt in them?

Do you know the exact size of tubing you are using & where did you get it?

As far as the topic of this thread, I like running 4 panniers. I keep one of the front bags just for smelly items such as toothpaste, sunscreen and food. That way I can hang that bag up in a tree or somewhere to keep the critters out of my tent and the smells out of the other 3 bags.
I strongly suspect it wasnt inserted properly, or that the little plastic tab got damaged when you put it in. I"ve used the inserts for years now and they stay in very solidly---now this touches on the whole issue of putting them in and taking them out--you really have to be careful and think it through as you do it, especially for removal.
There really is a special technique that works, but it is very easy to force things the wrong way--and this also touches on the rather strong prying method with a flathead screwdriver to get them out WHILE holding the release thingee all the way open to allow you to actually move the things sideways.

I've gotten good at it now, but can completely see how it would be very easy to damage the plastic tab that keeps them in place, and I am sure many people have done this.

I too am playing with removing the tabs and doing the tubing technique, in fact, I should start a thread on just this so that it is easily found by others, tips would be a big help and I find Ortlieb doesnt go out of their way to make it clear how to easily and safely remove and install.

I am certain to them, with their Germanic engineering type minds, its obvious, but they really could do with some better explained visual methods (as I understand they want their instructions not to rely on written words so they cover easily all their markets)

for years I have thought of doing a youtube vid on this, but of course never do. Not easy to do a good effective video by yourself, need 4 hands type of thing.
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Old 10-17-16, 07:46 AM
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44# of gear in 2 rear panniers?

- perfectly fine riding flat road.
- will suck when climbing out of the saddle.
- will suck on the backside of hills.

What you call a hassle, I would consider a benefit. The ability to distribute weight between the front and back will make for less of a hassle when actually riding, which is what I shoot for- easiest riding setup depending on that ride's needs.
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Old 10-17-16, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Regarding my comment that it would depend on the bike, my expedition bike has a very solid steel frame and it would easily handle twice the weight you are talking about on the rear without any problem. But my rando bike has a light weight steel frame and it would probably handle like a wet noodle at 20 kg on the rear rack.

Chain stay length will probably be a factor too. Shorter chainstays would put the added weight center of gravity well behind the hub.
The Thorn expedition bikes are built to take most of the weight on the rear, or so I understand. I have never really tested it myself, but supposedly they handle better, especially at speed, with little weight up front.
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Old 10-17-16, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jonc123 View Post
...
Do you know the exact size of tubing you are using & where did you get it?
....
I assume this question was in reference to the clear plastic tubing I have in the photo of my Backroller on my Tubus Logo rack. I am in USA where many products are measured in inches, not SI units. I think it is 3/8 inch inside diameter with a 1/16 inch wall thickness for an outside diameter of 1/2 inch. I also used a bit of electrical tape over the PVC tubing to make teh pannier hooks fit a little tighter.

I also put some PVC tubing on my front rack which is not Tubus, the metal tubing in that rack is slightly larger diameter and the pannier hooks do not fit as well on that rack.

I think I paid about 35 cents per foot. I bought extra so that I could also use some of the PVC tubing to protect the rack from chafing. In the past I used electrical tape to reduce chafing, but that often wore off quickly.

Originally Posted by djb View Post
I strongly suspect it wasnt inserted properly, or that the little plastic tab got damaged when you put it in. I"ve used the inserts for years now and they stay in very solidly....
I have found that when I really load down the panniers, the hooks that take the pannier weight deform slightly over time and open up further. The little tabs on the inserts then do not grip as well and if the pannier hooks open too far the inserts can completely fall out.

But, if you do not put too much weight in the panniers, the inserts will probably stay there forever.

The weight in my panniers was why I switched to the PVC plastic tubing, on this trip I had to be quite self reliant (nearest bike shop was over 100 miles away, nearest anything else was over 50 miles away at times) so my panniers had lots of heavy spares and at one time I had about two weeks worth of food on the bike. Photo says it all, next petrol station was 205 km and this was where the road was still paved and in good shape.
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Old 10-17-16, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by skookum View Post
The Thorn expedition bikes are built to take most of the weight on the rear, or so I understand. I have never really tested it myself, but supposedly they handle better, especially at speed, with little weight up front.
My Sherpa handles well with a lot of weight up front or very little. Same with my Nomad. But the Sherpa does not have the total capacity that my Nomad has. The Nomad also uses M6 rack bolts for extra strength, the Sherpa uses the more common M5 bolts.
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Old 10-17-16, 09:54 AM
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When I Ordered my Ortlieb Panniers from Wayne, I asked for an extra set of the original hooks, 10 mm only
and used them on all 4 panniers No insert to lose (Tubus or Bruce Gordon racks work)
I had a Old Sportpacker set and so swapped in that hook set for the insert ones , since the 8mm insert worked well
on my Bike friday front rack.
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Old 10-17-16, 10:00 AM
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I long ago came to prefer the weight up front in panniers supplemented only by a dry bag stuffer on top of the rear rack for bulky things. I initially started with everything on the rear rack. I soon learned that the weighted rear wheel (gear and me) was more easily damaged when it hit pot holes on road and offroad.

With more weight up front I can lift the front wheel a bit to limit the hit in the pothole but could not do that for the rear wheel. Since making the change I no longer break spokes and my wheels stay true even after the Divide Ride on a rigid bike.
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Old 10-17-16, 11:49 AM
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When I was running a front rack, I actually had most of my gear in the backroller classics on the front rack. Because I'm a packrat, there also ended being gear on the rear rack as well, but it was mostly "extra" stuff that probably wouldn't go on an extended tour like my camp chair and cooler. I mention this because, as a lot of people have said, I find the bike handles weight better in the front than in the rear, and if I were going to carry all of my gear in one place or the other, I'd put it up front.

However, if I were to guess, I'd say the rack and bags will be sufficient for the weight you are carrying.

Now that I have no front rack, I still try and move weight up front by using a handlebar bag and cargo cages on the fork. I use a Revelate harness, but the same thing can be accomplished more cheaply and lighter, although with more fiddling, just by strapping a dry bag to your bars. It's an option if you want to try to balance the load more without adding a front rack. I'm not sure it's a better option. That's probably a matter of preference. Still, since the bulk of rider weight ends up on the rear wheel, and since the rear wheel is usually a little more fragile from being dished, I still see a benefit in moving stuff up front if you are a heavier rider or are carrying a lot of gear.
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Old 10-17-16, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I assume this question was in reference to the clear plastic tubing I have in the photo of my Backroller on my Tubus Logo rack. I am in USA where many products are measured in inches, not SI units. I think it is 3/8 inch inside diameter with a 1/16 inch wall thickness for an outside diameter of 1/2 inch. I also used a bit of electrical tape over the PVC tubing to make the pannier hooks fit a little tighter.
That gives me a place to start, I haven't found a place that sells it by the foot. I'll check Home Depot & Lowes again, I think they just sell rolls of it.

I don't carry a whole bunch in my bags weight wise, but the racket the bags make when going over expansion joints, etc. drives me crazy.
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Old 10-17-16, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I have found that when I really load down the panniers, the hooks that take the pannier weight deform slightly over time and open up further. The little tabs on the inserts then do not grip as well and if the pannier hooks open too far the inserts can completely fall out.

But, if you do not put too much weight in the panniers, the inserts will probably stay there forever.
as you say, my panniers have never been really really heavy, so the doohickies have been fine--that said, I hear what you say about the deforming aspect. The reason I've been playing with putting tubing on my racks in the last while was really just to eliminate the issue of the doohickies acting up. The only problem is that I now have to put tape and tubing on all of my bikes so that I can use the panniers on diff bikes, there's no way I want to put in and take out those things regularly, they are a real pain in the rear.

I would add, the one downside to ortlieb panniers with the plastic tab bottom thingee is that unlike a pannier with a bungee and a hook, the tab position might work on one bike but not another, same with the two upper hooks.....Ive been lucky more or less with my two bikes I've used for the last 6 or 7 years, the racks are similar and so the ortliebs I have transfered easily from one to another. But now with the troll and tubus racks, its all diff so I cant easily just put them on the other bikes once they've been set up for the Troll and its Tubus racks.
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Old 10-17-16, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jonc123 View Post
That gives me a place to start, I haven't found a place that sells it by the foot. I'll check Home Depot & Lowes again, I think they just sell rolls of it.

I don't carry a whole bunch in my bags weight wise, but the racket the bags make when going over expansion joints, etc. drives me crazy.
little tip, I put the cut opening at the bottom, but found that sometimes the closing opening thing on the ortlieb upper clips will catch on the slight opening of the tubing, making it hard to get off. Turned the tubing so that the opening is on the top and it fixed the problem.
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