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Crashing

Old 02-18-17, 09:21 AM
  #76  
Chuck Naill
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Hello. What's this thread about?
Squeezebox trying very hard that his is the only opinion that counts. So far his tactics have been to tell me to calm down, that he thinks driving slow increases risk, for which he cites his opinion. Then, he said changing shoes is fast because his opinion is that changing shoes is fast. Lastly, this thread is about what it takes to drive Squeezebox crazy, cyclists who don't want to carry two pairs of shoes regardless of the fact that it is not a matter of weight. Again, his opinion was that it was about weight.
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Old 02-18-17, 09:24 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
Squeezebox trying very hard that his is the only opinion that counts. So far his tactics have been to tell me to calm down, that he thinks driving slow increases risk, for which he cites his opinion. Then, he said changing shoes is fast because his opinion is that changing shoes is fast. Lastly, this thread is about what it takes to drive Squeezebox crazy, cyclists who don't want to carry two pairs of shoes regardless of the fact that it is not a matter of weight. Again, his opinion was that it was about weight.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 02-18-17, 09:44 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Hello. What's this thread about?
at this point it's about two pages too long.
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Old 02-18-17, 10:07 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

The idea of thinking you can practice falling on grass and develop a skill to be used in a 30 MPH crash on asphalt is so ridiculous that it doesn't need really to be discussed, but apparently it does here because think common sense means to be afraid.
Suit yourself, but the hiker with hours of practice on the judo mat will disagree. Or different disciplines, it doesn't have to be judo.
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Old 02-18-17, 10:30 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by wphHamilton View Post
Suit yourself, but the hiker with hours of practice on the judo mat will disagree. Or different disciplines, it doesn't have to be judo.
Are you talking about someone walking on a trail or does hiker have another meaning? If not, why would practicing hours falling on a piece of foam help a person walking in the woods?
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Old 02-18-17, 11:05 AM
  #81  
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I have 1 bike, it's an old (15yr old?) triathlon bike, Ultegra almost everything, brand new $400 Ultegra wheels... BEST of all it was a gift from my Sister-in-law. With it I was introduced to road/distance cycling and I LOVE IT. But if I get hit by a car and the bike gets damaged, I'm quite worried that I would not be able to afford the replacement parts, much less an entire bike.

What happens days after a vehicle hits a cyclist?

Please excuse my newB-ness, I'm 8 months old in the road cycling world, and leery of riding on traffic roads.
1. If a cyclist gets hit by a car, I assume you get their insurance information, correct?
2. Medical expenses get handled by their insurance right?
3. Is there supposed to be a police report to give the insurance companies to determine who is at fault?
4. How does the damage to the bike get estimated?
5. Do insurance companies typically know what they are doing when they assess the damage to a road bike?

Would anyone share their experience and/or advice please?

Thank you,

-nervous rider
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Old 02-18-17, 11:23 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Fett2oo5 View Post
I have 1 bike, it's an old (15yr old?) triathlon bike, Ultegra almost everything, brand new $400 Ultegra wheels... BEST of all it was a gift from my Sister-in-law. With it I was introduced to road/distance cycling and I LOVE IT. But if I get hit by a car and the bike gets damaged, I'm quite worried that I would not be able to afford the replacement parts, much less an entire bike.

What happens days after a vehicle hits a cyclist?

Please excuse my newB-ness, I'm 8 months old in the road cycling world, and leery of riding on traffic roads.
1. If a cyclist gets hit by a car, I assume you get their insurance information, correct?
2. Medical expenses get handled by their insurance right?
3. Is there supposed to be a police report to give the insurance companies to determine who is at fault?
4. How does the damage to the bike get estimated?
5. Do insurance companies typically know what they are doing when they assess the damage to a road bike?

Would anyone share their experience and/or advice please?

Thank you,

-nervous rider
The rules do not apply to cycling only. Always get the insurance information and drivers name and address. Yes, call the law. If you were at fault, the driver is not responsible. Your medical insurance will cover your expenses according to the policy in place. I don't carry insurance on my bicycle. If the driver is the cause, you need to file a claim along with your medical expenses after the fact.

I would follow the same process if I were walking.
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Old 02-18-17, 12:11 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
Squeezebox trying very hard that his is the only opinion that counts. So far his tactics have been to tell me to calm down, that he thinks driving slow increases risk, for which he cites his opinion. Then, he said changing shoes is fast because his opinion is that changing shoes is fast. Lastly, this thread is about what it takes to drive Squeezebox crazy, cyclists who don't want to carry two pairs of shoes regardless of the fact that it is not a matter of weight. Again, his opinion was that it was about weight.
A driverless vehicle could very well cause a crash....
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Old 02-18-17, 02:49 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
A driverless vehicle could very well cause a crash....
Can you explain why you quoted my post?
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Old 02-18-17, 03:00 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
at this point it's about two pages too long.
Did you read about Ty getting hit by a car?
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Old 02-18-17, 03:17 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
Are you talking about someone walking on a trail or does hiker have another meaning? If not, why would practicing hours falling on a piece of foam help a person walking in the woods?
That's why you also practice on concrete

I'm talking about the example @Squeezebox gave, of the hiker who was able to fall without injury because of all the hours he spent training in a dojo. Honestly, if you have to ask this you obviously have no experience with it, which is OK but the attitude that everyone is an idiot is not OK.
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Old 02-18-17, 04:48 PM
  #87  
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Funny discussion but some faulty logic going on.

I bet that guy practicing judo falls did not do so in order to be able to slip and fall on a hiking trail later on. It was an unrelated consequence of a skill learned for an unrelated activity. Training to fall on grass or concrete intentionally so you can later fall on your bike better at speed is something I can honestly say I have never heard of anyone doing.

Unrelated but related loosely is the idea of falling while climbing.

When I sport climbed I fell sometimes. It was expected and even encouraged in a sense because you could not really push the limits without doing so. Sometimes a specific sequence would entail falling many times until one figured it out. But, it was also relatively safe because we were usually top roped or on good pro(tection). While doing so one learned how to "fall". My risk aversion was fairly low in that case.

OTOH, when alpine climbing falls were strongly discouraged, even though we all knew how to fall, due to relatively unprotected leads and remote locations - but still somewhat expected and prepared for. I would say the risk aversion was moderate. Mostly we imagined we would know what to do if it happened.

When solo alpine climbing, falling simply was not an option. The chance of a successful outcome was practically nil so, although I knew how to fall from sport climbing, the parameters were different and my risk aversion was high even while participating in a high risk activity.

Somewhat similar to biking. If I am riding around the block I might try standing on the Handlebars and seat or using no hands (to impress the kids). If mtbing on a known trail where I might be found I might try to get a little funky. But, if I am solo touring far from home on a desolate hwy and have my years holidays and all my equipment dependent on staying healthy, I tend to take fewer risks. The reward of impressing no one in particular does not equal the risk of something small potentially screwing something up really big.

My last fall off a bike was going up the Crowsnest Hwy towards Manning at a speed of maybe 2-5 kmh. I was talking to a friend behind me and my wheel slipped off the pavement into soft sand and pitched me before I knew what happened. Landed half on the hwy (fortunately no trucks going by atm).

Gave myself an ouchy!



It happened just past here:



And here's a stretch of the old Hope Princeton Hwy we saw on that ride that has been closed to traffic since the mid 1960's due to a rockslide that swept across the valley. Very slowly the forest is reclaiming the road:

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Old 02-18-17, 04:50 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
That's why you also practice on concrete

I'm talking about the example @Squeezebox gave, of the hiker who was able to fall without injury because of all the hours he spent training in a dojo. Honestly, if you have to ask this you obviously have no experience with it, which is OK but the attitude that everyone is an idiot is not OK.
I've been backpacking and hiking for decades. I suspect this has nothing to do with hiking since practicing on a flat padded floor for hours would never duplicate carrying a 35 pound back on slick roots on a down hill grade.

Last edited by Chuck Naill; 02-18-17 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 02-18-17, 04:58 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post

My last fall off a bike was going up the Crowsnest Hwy towards Manning at a speed of maybe 2-5 kmh. I was talking to a friend behind me and my wheel slipped off the pavement into soft sand and pitched me before I knew what happened. Landed half on the hwy (fortunately no trucks going by atm).
Using the wisdom here, practice talking to friends behind you going much, much faster while using only SPD type pedals and wearing bibs with logs laid out in front. Over time, you will become a much better cyclist. Or, using my advice, just use common sense and don't turn to talk to your riding buddy.
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Old 02-18-17, 05:48 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
I've been backpacking and hiking for decades. I suspect this has nothing to do with hiking since practicing on a flat padded floor for hours would never duplicate carrying a 35 pound back on slick roots on a down hill grade.
Chuck,

I think what Happy Feet said was correct. People learn judo for the purpose of practicing an art. However, the consequences of learning that art are: increased strength, better balance, greater flexibility, skills in landing after getting thrown, body awareness and control, and faster reflexes. Yes, falls are practiced, although not always executed as planned. Judo is hard on the body. My Sensei told me that" when you do a move 1000 times, it is is yours". I guess I know how to hit the mat because I'm sure I hit it at least that many times

I think all those attributes can help prevent and minimize accident injuries and lessen the consequences of unexpected situations, such as falls and crashes.

No, I don't advocate practicing falls on concrete. I don't even advocate practicing falls at all. When I practice bike skills like bunny hops on my bike, I do practice on grass just in case I screw up.

I was a professional forester for many years and spent a lot of that time "hiking in the woods". I have no tangible evidence that practicing a martial art prevents or reduces the consequences of a fall, but I really do think that it helped my agility and balance; all important when "carrying a 35 lb pack on slick roots on a downhill grade." I have also been a backcounrty ski patroller for 35years, and often carry a 35+ lb pack down steep slippery grades; and I need everything that I can muster at times

Last edited by Doug64; 02-18-17 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 02-18-17, 08:55 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
...I'm talking about the example @Squeezebox gave, of the hiker who was able to fall without injury because of all the hours he spent training in a dojo. Honestly, if you have to ask this you obviously have no experience with it, which is OK but the attitude that everyone is an idiot is not OK.
Minor point, but it was me who told the story of the expert judo hiker.

We were descending a steep talus slope when he fell head-first, and I watched the whole thing. He landed like a cat, without injury.
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Old 02-18-17, 09:09 PM
  #92  
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Practice-crashing on a bicycle would be more akin to a boxer that practices being knocked-out...VERY bad idea!

Practice and hone your cycling skills like a boxer practices his offensive & defensive fighting skills. Judo may be about falling but cycling is not!!!
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Old 02-18-17, 09:39 PM
  #93  
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There are crashes, and there are CRASHES. My most memorable (and painful) one was a commuting crash I had 4 years ago. Beautiful fall day, I was headed downhill on a pot hole riddled road I had ridden pretty much daily for several years. I knew where every pot hole was on that road. I remember the oh **** moment when I hit a deep pothole that I somehow managed to clip. I was doing between 35 and 40, at the time, and had just touched the brakes to begin braking for the stop sign at the bottom of the hill. Since my hands were on the brakes, I managed to flip the bike and landed on my face.

I was airlifted to the closest trauma center. Broken jaw, 4 missing teeth, fractured neck (C5 and C6), nearly lost my eye. Thank goodness I had my (now broken) helmet on as I likely wouldn't have made it. It took about a thousand (yes, that many) stitches to put my face back together, as the surgeon had to do it in layers. I spent a couple of days in ICU, and about 6 wks in a neck brace. The dental work went on for the next couple of years. One more surgery to my face a year later to take care of some issues with my eye. The bike survived nicely (other than the wheels and fork). I must have protected that Ti frame with my body as it was still between my legs when I was sprawled out on the blacktop. I rode it today.

So that one was the crash that slowed me down a lot. No more 50 mph down hills. No more slaloms through pot holes. I'm very happy to be alive, and don't mind slowing it down a bit. I'm much less serious about riding these days, and traffic unnerves me a little more than it used to, but I still ride a fair amount.

BTW, you can't practice for a crash like that. Avoid it in the first place, maybe.

Last edited by sesmith; 02-18-17 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-18-17, 09:42 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Snuts View Post
This looks like the hot thread today. And here I go riding all day on my new bike. I can expect some good reading this eve.

I will not (intentionally) be practising any upset maneuvers.



-Snuts-
Nobody is going to crash at their computer. I rode all over town, and out the hiway a bit. Total about 70km, no crashes. I was practising no crashing for the up coming touring season.

Now it is bed time.
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Old 02-18-17, 11:52 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
Minor point, but it was me who told the story of the expert judo hiker.

We were descending a steep talus slope when he fell head-first, and I watched the whole thing. He landed like a cat, without injury.
Sorry, I must have seen him quoting you. People miss the fact that moves like his really do work, and not just inside on a padded floor. I've used Aikido falls, which take from the Judo discipline, in both bike and motorcycle falls. I probably shouldn't have jumped in with my 2 cents because there's always someone who will argue about it.
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Old 02-19-17, 12:23 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Did you read about Ty getting hit by a car?
yes, but did not comment.
did anyone ask "how's the bike"?
hope it wasn't the spin, shame to scratch that one.
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Old 02-19-17, 12:32 AM
  #97  
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"Learning" how to fall has some merit, for sure. But who would argue that it isn't always better to avoid a crash in the first place? Crash avoidance is where the focus should be.

That's why threads like these where crashes are analyzed after the fact are helpful. Others can learn how to avoid a similar fate.

Some riders are able to go years, even decades without a wreck. Then there are others who have lots of experience rolling with the crashes. Maybe they're better at falling, but it seems to me they're doing something wrong.
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Old 02-19-17, 05:51 AM
  #98  
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It was not my intention to argue. I do take issue with the idea that practicing on a pad for hours will help hikers except that it might help make on more agile. Of course being in shape before taking off on a back packing trip I think would be the rule. I do not think one anecdotal experience of someone being agile as a cat in a fall means anything more than what occurred one time and may or may not be duplicated in another situation.

The reason I got involved in this thread was because of one post which disagreed with using common sense rather than trying to learn from accidents as a strategy for becoming a better cyclists.

I know this, this thread will cause me to stop looking around as much as I tend to do. I need to pay better attention to the road ahead.
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Old 02-19-17, 09:57 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Some riders are able to go years, even decades without a wreck. Then there are others who have lots of experience rolling with the crashes. Maybe they're better at falling, but it seems to me they're doing something wrong.
Not "wrong" just doing something different. Most of my crashes have been off-road while mountain biking where an occasional fall is expected. You aren't, after all, riding on a smooth, mostly consistent surface. But that doesn't mean that you can't learn from those experiences and apply them to other situations.

Paying attention to how I crash and learning how to fall without getting hurt as well as learning how to avoid situations where I could fall all work together to make me a better rider. Someone who has never crashed probably not going know how to act when it eventually happens and they will be injured more severely as a result.

Of course I avoid crashes...I'm not entirely stupid...but my experiences with crashing allow me to avoid crashing as well.
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Old 02-21-17, 08:20 AM
  #100  
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Well stated!
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