Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

I'm Neutral about Carbon

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

I'm Neutral about Carbon

Old 05-13-17, 02:04 PM
  #1  
jamawani 
Hooked on Touring
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,672
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 36 Posts
I'm Neutral about Carbon

If you love carbon - - fine.
If you hate carbon - - fine.
jamawani is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 02:18 PM
  #2  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 4,944
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2113 Post(s)
Liked 1,175 Times in 636 Posts
It's not a fine, it's a tax.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 02:30 PM
  #3  
Snuts
Mid Tour!
 
Snuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Soon back in Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 569

Bikes: Marin Muirwoods Racked out for this years Tour, Norco Indi 4 racked out from last years tour, Giant Defi II for week-end ripps.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
It's not a fine, it's a tax.
My kind of humor.

-Snuts-
Snuts is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 02:36 PM
  #4  
BigAura
 
BigAura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapin, SC
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: all steel stable: surly world troller, paris sport fixed, fuji ss

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 31 Posts
Aren't we all basically carbon?
BigAura is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 03:04 PM
  #5  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 25,288
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13650 Post(s)
Liked 1,917 Times in 1,453 Posts
Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Aren't we all basically carbon?
Bags of water?
CliffordK is online now  
Old 05-13-17, 05:39 PM
  #6  
bwgride
Slow Rider
 
bwgride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 1,043
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Aren't we all basically carbon?
If you are equating bikes to humans, then do you have a preference of which you prefer to ride?
bwgride is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 05:44 PM
  #7  
stardognine
Senior Member
 
stardognine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Arid Arizona, for now.
Posts: 2,797

Bikes: 1995 Cannondale Killer V

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 732 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 303 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by bwgride View Post
If you are equating bikes to humans, then do you have a preference of which you prefer to ride?
Definitely female. 😁
stardognine is offline  
Old 05-13-17, 05:51 PM
  #8  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 25,288
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13650 Post(s)
Liked 1,917 Times in 1,453 Posts
Originally Posted by stardognine View Post
Definitely female. 😁
Bikes?
CliffordK is online now  
Old 05-13-17, 06:19 PM
  #9  
BigAura
 
BigAura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapin, SC
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: all steel stable: surly world troller, paris sport fixed, fuji ss

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 31 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Bikes?
la bicicleta
BigAura is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 11:30 AM
  #10  
pdlamb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 6,763

Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1547 Post(s)
Liked 737 Times in 462 Posts
The twin joys of ignorance and apathy:


I don't know, and I don't care.
pdlamb is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 02:11 PM
  #11  
str
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Universe Spain
Posts: 723
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Liked 99 Times in 48 Posts
kindergarten
str is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 02:28 PM
  #12  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,212

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3634 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 44 Posts
I can't afford, scratch that, I refuse to pay for carbon so I just pretend it doesn't exist...
jefnvk is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 03:47 PM
  #13  
nickw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 800
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
I can't afford, scratch that, I refuse to pay for carbon so I just pretend it doesn't exist...
But...some of the most expensive bikes out there are custom steel!
nickw is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 09:44 PM
  #14  
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,212

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3634 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 44 Posts
Originally Posted by nickw View Post
But...some of the most expensive bikes out there are custom steel!
Yeah, I pretend they don't exist too!
jefnvk is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 10:00 PM
  #15  
willibrord
Senior Member
 
willibrord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 475

Bikes: steel but the next will be bamboo

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 534 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 29 Posts
Carbon neutral? Carbon is a more environmentaly friendly frame material than Steel or aluminum.
willibrord is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 10:58 PM
  #16  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 12,642

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5360 Post(s)
Liked 2,625 Times in 1,534 Posts
Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Carbon neutral? Carbon is a more environmentaly friendly frame material than Steel or aluminum.
I am not disagreeing, I have simply never seen a good study to back up your comment.

How is it more environmentally friendly? At the manufacturing point? At the end point? Overall in every way measurable?

What i have read is this-
- it takes 14 times more energy to create a CF frame vs a steel frame.
- steel and aluminum frames and components can be recycled. There is no established recycling process for CF frames or components.
- CF doesnt break down over time due to the very properties which make it so appealing as a finished product.


There are steel frame bikes still in use which are 50 years old. Millions of 20-40 year old steel frame bikes are still able to be used in the US alone. Seriously- millions.
At what year of use does a steel frame catch up to carbon?...after 10 years? 20?


I am genuinely interested in this topic so please link specifics showing in what way(s) metal frames are environmentally worse, and measurably how much worse they are.

Really- Worse in terms of water use at the point of manufacturing? Worse in terms of pollutants released durong manufacturing? Worse how?
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 06:49 AM
  #17  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 11,533
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2067 Post(s)
Liked 493 Times in 418 Posts
this argument is frankly taxing my brain, but I am steeling myself for more...
djb is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 10:19 AM
  #18  
nickw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 800
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I am not disagreeing, I have simply never seen a good study to back up your comment.

How is it more environmentally friendly? At the manufacturing point? At the end point? Overall in every way measurable?

What i have read is this-
- it takes 14 times more energy to create a CF frame vs a steel frame.
- steel and aluminum frames and components can be recycled. There is no established recycling process for CF frames or components.
- CF doesnt break down over time due to the very properties which make it so appealing as a finished product.


There are steel frame bikes still in use which are 50 years old. Millions of 20-40 year old steel frame bikes are still able to be used in the US alone. Seriously- millions.
At what year of use does a steel frame catch up to carbon?...after 10 years? 20?


I am genuinely interested in this topic so please link specifics showing in what way(s) metal frames are environmentally worse, and measurably how much worse they are.

Really- Worse in terms of water use at the point of manufacturing? Worse in terms of pollutants released durong manufacturing? Worse how?
I've really questioned how much waste is produced manuf carbon frames. I know a lot of the companies use vacuum bags, so essentially a plastic bag for every component produced, which is tossed. It gets complicated since you have to look at the whole supply chain, soup to nuts. Steel seems better instinctively, but when factoring in large scale production, mining ore, shipping....who knows.
nickw is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 11:15 AM
  #19  
niknak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 771
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by nickw View Post
I've really questioned how much waste is produced manuf carbon frames. I know a lot of the companies use vacuum bags, so essentially a plastic bag for every component produced, which is tossed. It gets complicated since you have to look at the whole supply chain, soup to nuts. Steel seems better instinctively, but when factoring in large scale production, mining ore, shipping....who knows.
It would be interesting to find out, but since studies like that might never be made on the rather small bicycle industry, it's easier to just go with the tried-and-true eco-friendly method of buying USED. Regardless of frame material, reusing something that's already been created will inherently be "better for the environment". It's also cheaper.
niknak is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 11:30 AM
  #20  
Jim from Boston
Senior Member
 
Jim from Boston's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times in 165 Posts
Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Aren't we all basically carbon?
Bipedal carbon-based life forms (with apologies to the OP ).
Jim from Boston is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 02:03 PM
  #21  
J.Higgins 
Mentally Derailleured
 
J.Higgins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,331

Bikes: Bilenky Tourlite, Surly Ogre

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1183 Post(s)
Liked 476 Times in 325 Posts
You can find a decent carbon bike on Craigslist. Many haven't been ridden 20 miles. People get them with good intentions, but the gold loses its luster when they actually have to work for it. Personally, a titanium bike is next up on my list.
J.Higgins is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 02:18 PM
  #22  
ce111917
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 14

Bikes: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
Carbon neutral? Carbon is a more environmentaly friendly frame material than Steel or aluminum.
I've heard this before but I've never seen the evidence/studies either, so I'd be very interested to hear your source for this as well.
ce111917 is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 03:29 PM
  #23  
alan s 
Senior Member
 
alan s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 6,946
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1481 Post(s)
Liked 175 Times in 116 Posts
Sorry to inform you but there is carbon in steel. I love crystallized carbon frames aka diamond frames.
alan s is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 10:35 PM
  #24  
willibrord
Senior Member
 
willibrord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 475

Bikes: steel but the next will be bamboo

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 534 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 29 Posts
Originally Posted by ce111917 View Post
I've heard this before but I've never seen the evidence/studies either, so I'd be very interested to hear your source for this as well.
Steel has a high carbon footprint, as high CO2 coking coal is burned in the steel making process .Al uses a lot of electrical energy to refine, it was very expensive to make Alu until electrical power became plentiful. Carbon fiber sequesters carbon in the bike frame, it isn't emitted into the atmosphere as GHG gases.
willibrord is offline  
Old 05-17-17, 03:44 AM
  #25  
BigAura
 
BigAura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapin, SC
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: all steel stable: surly world troller, paris sport fixed, fuji ss

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 31 Posts
My steel frame is 40+ years-old. I rode it yesterday. In the extreme unlikely-hood that becomes unusable as a bicycle I throw it in the recycle bin.

It's hard for me believe that current carbon-frames will be ridden 40 years from now. The the landfill is where they'll end up
BigAura is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.