I am very comfortable eating stoveless as I dislike the hassle of cooking if it's just me (I enjoy the social aspect of cooking with others). I wouldn't do the cold soaking thing though. It's pretty easy to just choose foods that you can eat without prep, especially if you can hit a store on a daily basis. Starbucks has a pretty good Via iced coffee mix that I put in a water bottle and drink for my caffeine fix.

I think it's a lot like camping. Some people want to do it and others don't and insist on the hotel experience. Of course staying in a hotel is "more pleasant" than camping but (for me) there is a sense of satisfaction in knowing I can rough it once in a while. Same with eating stoveless on a bike trip.

Longer term off the grid would be more of a challenge. I'm down to a SS cup/pot, can opener, spoon and small stove for a basic kitchen. Ahead of time I break down foods like mashed potatoes, couscous, oatmeal, ramen etc... into individual serving size vacuum sealed sandwiche bags and calculate how much water to add to them. On the road I just boil water, split it between a drink and meal and add it to the bag - and eat out of the bag too. No dishes to wash and trash is pretty compact (all goes in one of the sandwiche bags). It's a very efficient way to package food as well as the sandwiche bags conform to the shape of whatever container one is using for food storage.

Dinner at Rampart Creek, Columbia Icefield Parkway. Garlic mashed potatoes, herb and butter Couscous and some Wild Orange herbal tea:



The social aspect of cooking. Making camp biscuits for my brother and son on our Gulf Island tour:

Not at all. I guess I had you mixed up with someone else. My apologies.

Apology accepted.

Aww, how cute you two

Anyhow, cold soaking beans doesn't work. 1)It costs more weight in water than just buying a can of beans. 2) The beans aren't edible and stay raw/hard. I tried once on a tour and its just an epic failure. Lentils might work, but again, the water weight penalty is high.

I've tried raw sprouted-chickpea hummus & while it tasted OK I got bad indigestion. Raw sprouted small lentils, OTOH can be quite tasty & digestible. If camp site has water than weight of soaking water isn't a problem.

I tried to make stone soup once and that didn't work, I think that story is a myth.

Interesting. But couldn't the be a problem with bacteria growing in your cold soaking food?

I just had to chuckle. I once made raw hummus by mistake--soaked the beans long enough to sprout but forgot to put them in the pressure cooker. I didn't realize until I tasted it. I didn't eat enough to get any ill effects, rather I made patties and steamed them--now that was good.

Not in a few hours. By the way, do you realize that sourdough is fermented with - wait for it..... bacteria. Same with making beer snd sauerkraut - and moonshine.

Your "concern" is a red herring

If you're going to be condescending, at least do it right. That is not what a "red herring" argument is.

Obviously you and I have different opinions on the validity of "red herrings" and the term "to be condescending" and their use in pointless expressions of personal opinions on nothing particularly earth-shattering. ... yadda.

The expressed "concern" of bacterial growth is a nonsensical diversion. I challenge you to Google the number of deaths caused by eating cold-soaked oatmeal/raisins.....

Your very argument states that there are bacteria and thus his question is relevant, hence you are contradicting yourself. A red herring is an unrelated diversion.

His post was neither non-nonsensical nor unrelated.

Also, not all bacteria are good just because some bacteria are good. Your post was actually much more of a logical fallacy than his was haha. Having a bag full of beans in a tropical climate for a few days could very well breed some nasties.

Right! The previous posters are cold soaking in the tropics! Pardon my ignorance. NOW I understand your concerns about my scribbles. Remind me to take your Logic 101 course.

FWIW, contribution #33 indicated no issue with cold-soaked foods, and NO ONE ELSE did, either. The concern expressed in contribution #32 is a false trail - aka red herring! NO ONE previously (or since #32 ) expressed issues with bacteria-contaminated cold-soaked foods causing health issues.

Now that we are both OT, maybe the original topic can be resumed.
Moderators? Opinions?

I'm not a scientist nor am I trying to promote discourse, but shouldn't there be a concern about food safety?


USDA
"Importance of Refrigeration
Refrigeration slows bacterial growth. Bacteria exist everywhere in nature. They are in the soil, air, water, and the foods we eat. When they have nutrients (food), moisture, and favorable temperatures, they grow rapidly, increasing in numbers to the point where some types of bacteria can cause illness. Bacteria grow most rapidly in the range of temperatures between 40 and 140 °F, the "Danger Zone," some doubling in number in as little as 20 minutes. A refrigerator set at 40 °F or below will protect most foods."


https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...mSyP-U65_4!/#2

Some interesting topics have been touched on. I have done a lot of sprouting, soaking, and muesli and yogurt making, and have been fairly careless about bacteria and other so-called nasties. However, I must admit that in the back of my mind I've often wondered just how reckless I am being.

In third world countries I am not reckless. In India, Mexico, Thailand and other countries, I am extremely careful. I have seen many people get sick from foods, water, and drinks in these countries. Sometimes very seriously sick.

Yet the people who live full time in these countries are usually able to eat the same foods, and drink the same drinks without getting sick. (Some of them do get sick, but those people are often not seen. They are in bed or in the hospital, or in some cases no longer alive. So they aren't out and about; and even those who are don't always wear a sign saying I'm sick.)

I've spent time in medical school, and have studied microbiology quite a bit. Yet I do not fully understand all of the issues involved here. I would like to understand more. If anyone has anything to add please do.

One thing I can add about potential food poisoning is that the Buddha probably died from food poisoning, in India.

Older people are more at risk.

Among the microorganisms that are common and can cause serious health problems, cancers specifically, are some of the aflatoxin molds. They are among the most potent liver carcinogens. And liver cancer is a painful way to die.

As I understand it, aflatoxins are not a problem unless the molds are growing at temperatures above 80 or 85 degrees Fahrenheit.

Some of these molds are odorless and tasteless and not visible under normal conditions. So detection is a problem. They do show up under ultraviolet light, however. And ultraviolet lights are inexpensive on Amazon. They are also useful in spotting scorpions at night.

Switching gears a bit, I'm a big fan of sprouted lentils. They are much less toxic than most raw legumes, and can be eaten safely in larger quantities. They are excellent in salads and sandwiches and wraps. They seem to be a much underappreciated food. They are also very high in protein. And they are easy and quick to sprout.

There are some less common varieties of lentils that are much better than the most commonly seen large green lentils. There are small black lentils that are excellent. There are French lentils that are also excellent. And there are others.

High protein wheat berries are also easy and versatile.

I am still waiting for numbers of documented cases of food poisoning caused by cold-soaking of oatmeal or noodles.

FWIW, a very good friend died of food poisoning after eating a sandwich prepared at the New Delhi airport. He was from India. He refused treatment in Vancouver and by the time he got to Winnipeg and the main hospital (WGH) it was too late.

A sandwich! Documented...

I don't like to be alarmist but facts are facts. My approach to sprouting might warrant rethinking and modification.

"Sprouts: What You Should Know
Do sprouts carry a risk of illness? Like any fresh produce that is consumed raw or lightly cooked, sprouts carry a risk of foodborne illness. Unlike other fresh produce, seeds and beans need warm and humid conditions to sprout and grow. These conditions are also ideal for the growth of bacteria, including Salmonella, Listeria, and E. coli.

Have sprouts been associated with outbreaks of foodborne illness? Since 1996, there have been at least 30 reported outbreaks of foodborne illness associated with different types of raw and lightly cooked sprouts. Most of these outbreaks were caused by Salmonella and E. coli.

What is the source of the bacteria? In outbreaks associated with sprouts, the seed is typically the source of the bacteria. There are a number of approved techniques to kill harmful bacteria that may be present on seeds and even tests for seeds during sprouting. But, no treatment is guaranteed to eliminate all harmful bacteria.

Are homegrown sprouts safer? Not necessarily. If just a few harmful bacteria are present in or on the seed, the bacteria can grow to high levels during sprouting, even under sanitary conditions at home.

What can industry do to enhance the safety of sprouts? In 1999, the FDA provided the sprout industry with guidance on reducing the risk of contamination of sprouts by harmful bacteria. The FDA and other Federal and state agencies continue to work with industry on detecting and reducing contamination and keeping contaminated sprouts out of the marketplace.

What can consumers do to reduce the risk of illness?

Children, the elderly, pregnant women, and persons with weakened immune systems should avoid eating raw sprouts of any kind (including alfalfa, clover, radish, and mung bean sprouts).
Cook sprouts thoroughly to reduce the risk of illness. Cooking kills the harmful bacteria.
Request that raw sprouts not be added to your food. If you purchase a sandwich or salad at a restaurant or delicatessen, check to make sure that raw sprouts have not been added.
General Information
Safe Eats: Fruits, Veggies, and Juices (FDA)
Guidelines for safe eating during pregnancy include warnings about sprouts.

Background on Previous Outbreaks
Raw Alfalfa Spouts Linked to Salmonella Contamination (FDA)
FDA recommendations to consumers in response to the Spring 2009 outbreak.

Investigation of an Outbreak of Salmonella Saintpaul Infections Linked to Raw Alfalfa Sprouts (CDC)
Includes a map showing the number of cases by state in the Spring 2009 outbreak."

https://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/type...s/sprouts.html

Haven't yet gotten a good handle on the odds or the likelihood. And the temperature ranges. And individual differences in response to exposure.

There is additional information on the web about safe sprouting.

Cooking is one solution. But I like raw foods.

A preference for being carefree can lead to ignoring warnings, or to not taking them seriously.

"Food poisoning (technically we doctors call it foodborne illness) happens when we eat or drink something that is contaminated with bacteria, parasites, or viruses, or with some chemical that causes illness. Every year forty-eight million people in the United States become ill from food, 128,000 are hospitalized, and three thousand people die from foodborne illnesses."

Overcooking to Kill Bacteria: Food Myth | Dr Terry Simpson

The rates and numbers are much higher within countries like India.

We were discussing cold soaked noodles and oatmeal initially, I think. Unprocessed seeds sold in bulk are a totally different situation. Never know whose unwashed hands handled them.

However, that said, you state there were 30 reported illnesses since 1996... two a year? IMHO this is veeeerrrrryyyy low risk - especially with no info regarding if any of these "illnesses" were the direct result of eating ANY cold soaked foods AND if there was cross-contamination. How many folks drown in swimming pools/bathtubs each year? Those drownings are much higher than the statistic you mention, yet there seems to be no concern about any bicycle tourer drowning in a bathtub.

https://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreatio...factsheet.html

Someone drowns in a tub nearly every day in America - seattlepi.com

I personally soak my mong beans in warm water and dishwashing detergent and rinse with tap water (which has chlorine as a disenfectant). Then I soak them and sprout them. I no longer wash the sprouts in soap and warm water prior to eating.

OTOH, how many folks handle money and do not wash their hands before eating? Like at McDonalds, eating nuggets/chips with their fingers...

A common science demo/experiment was to innoculate sterile petri dishes with a swab from money, pencils, water fountain knobs, etc. Quite the growth after several days, but the sterile unopened dishes had no growth...

That's right. And I didn't know until recently that rolled oats are parboiled in processing. I would assume the packaging process after that point is relatively clean, if not sterile. Same with Ramen noodles--they are fried before packaging.

At least thirty outbreaks. Each outbreak involves many people.

https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/2009/...-5-8-2009.html

The numbers for cases of food poisoning are substantial. "Every year forty-eight million people in the United States become ill from food, 128,000 are hospitalized, and three thousand people die from foodborne illnesses."

Both the original post and subsequent posts dealt with cold soaking a variety of foods, in addition to oats and noodles.

There remain questions of whether or not there are potential dangers of food poisoning from these and other commonly cold-soaked foods. And whether or not risk levels are higher when the foods are soaked at higher ambient temperatures. And whether or not problematic microorganisms are often found in or on these foods. And what conditions encourage or discourage these organisms.

Just yesterday I ate oats cold-soaked in apple juice. The lid of the container was bulging or doming, indicating strong microbial activity. The mixture was starting to fizz, and had a little tang. I haven't died yet, but it hasn't been 72 hours either. We won't be holding our breath ��.

I have on occasion noticed a fine carpet of what appears to be a white mold on the surface of the soaked oats. No doubt the organisms responsible also exist in substantial numbers during the period just before they become noticeable.

Many societies have been and still are very casual about the sanitation of fermented and soaked foods. It's not clear how often there are health problems involved.

It sure sounds like alcohol was forming from yeast in the apple juice.

I heard a story, don't know if it's true, of the nineteenth century gold rush miners and sourdough bread. They'd drink the nasty black alcoholic liquid from the top of the starter, called "hooch." And that led to the "sourdough" moniker. What a way to get a buzz.

Is this in re raw chickpea sprouts? If so, I'm quite sure it wasn't bacteria, rather some indigestible compound that is broken down with cooking. I didn't have vomiting nor diarrhea, just a couple hours of some minor but noticeable pain.

I have heard about contaminated sprouts though usually from commercial ones. Anyway, bacterial contamination of produce can happen but it's pretty rare in US etc.

Is this in re raw chickpea sprouts? If so, I'm quite sure it wasn't bacteria, rather some indigestible compound that is broken down with cooking. I didn't have vomiting nor diarrhea, just a couple hours of some minor but noticeable pain.

I have heard about contaminated sprouts though usually from commercial ones. Anyway, bacterial contamination of produce can happen but it's pretty rare in US etc.