Hello all future GAP'rs,

Just a story I have to get out of my head.

We three long time friends needed to do a 34 mile benefit ride offsite from the city it was actually held, as they are non-cyclists, ride once a year and never in a city. They picked Cumberland to Frostburg+ (to the 17 mile marker) and back.

Two friends have Cannondale and Trek gravel bikes, fat tires with granny gears, fat seats. They ride once a year. ONCE A YEAR!!!

I'm the cyclist(68 yo, fat guy, health issues). I have a 2012 Motobecane Fantom Cross, 28mm Conti GP5000 (116 PSI), and normal skinny seat.

I had understood it was asphalt and my asphalt paid the price. I felt every piece of gravel I rode over. We made numerous stops going up. Not a race. About 2:45 hours going up, we slow.

We stopped at the 17mile marker, came back down to the Frostburg rest stop. Very Nice. Discovery Tours(?) had a tour group and they invited us to lunch. Also nice.

The ride back was as fast as you wanted to go. In fact it was terrifying for me. Skinny tires were fast, but very unstable. I did not pedal until I was back in Cumberland(like mile 0.5). Drifted the entire way. Mostly rode my rear rim brake the entire way and did my best to avoid the larger stones. We got back in 1:15 hours.

So this is a warning the GAP can be done on road bike tires. But do not recommend. Especially if you are a fat guy like me.

Note: we stayed at the Fairfield Inn and that was wonderful. We enjoyed the Dig Deep brewery across the parking lot, the Crabby Pig(?) and Uncle John's Pizza and Pub (Got the Supreme Deep Dish). We had brought our wives and other friends, all had a wonderful time. We met numerous other cyclists and locals. Just wonderful.

Mirfi

Don’t know what led you to believe the GAP is paved in that area.

I can say that the Fairfield Inn there is really nice. Stayed there in 2020. You can literally ride up to the door from the C&O. (It’s located just beyond where the GAP meets the C&O.). Very bike friendly. You can take your bike in your room. It even had a laundry room. During the pandemic, the pool was closed, and there was no usual breakfast, but they gave you a sack breakfast to take with you.

Unfortunately, I was there on a Monday, so The Crabby Pig (along with many of the independent restaurants in town) was closed. Walked a ways and got good Mexican.

Oh I know, I saw your "builds" thread. Plus the astounding deals you get on parts! I'm guessing total is 1/4 what equal quality would cost for Dahon, a bit larger portion compared to better competitors these days. (I know you're not a fan of Dahon, it's just a known yardstick in folders.) With costs for same stuff in the USA, it would be a whole lot closer to production cost. Which I would do if getting a framestyle that cannot be bought turnkey for same cost.

I'm really starting to notice critical details; The Tyrell Ive is an elegant looking folder and in chrome moly, no mid-hinge, rear wheel folds to overlap the front triangle, and with folding fork (folds similar to Helix), folds within a couple inches of 62" airline with wheels on. But 355 wheels, rim brakes, and seat tube forward of the bottom bracket shell, so too far forward for front derailleur mount. But it's those two folding features that make it fold a lot smaller than a Bike Friday without disassembly. With the explosion of designs, sooner or later someone will put it all together in one design. I'm not traveling yet, I've got time.

I too owned a Dahon (Dash and Dash Altena) once, but I don't think they make any compelling bikes anymore, plus the ones that they do make are nearly impossible to find.

I like the Tyrell IVE and would have bought one but for the tire size limitation on 355 rims. If only it took 50-355 Schwalbe Big Apples!

yikes would not want to ride any portion of the gap on 28’s

don’t even like to ride relatively smooth paved trails on anything less than 32’s

I did the GAP fully loaded on 32s as part of a cross-PA tour starting in PGH. The thinking was why go fatter when only the first 150 would be unpaved? I wish I had been riding my normal 37s.

Impressive? I dunno. IIWII.

I met a couple of folks on the trail. One was a roadie on skinnier tires - maybe 34ish. They said they wish they had larger tires - this was just after the renowned muddy section east of Cumberland

John,

Last weekend when I was on the passage I only saw one person with a folder(non e-bike folder). Made me wish I had brought my Downtube FS9 instead of my road bike. 406 fat-ish tires, full suspension, incredible low end gearing. Maybe next year.

The two trails are very different, surface-wise. The GAP is a packed gravel, but not as you may imagine gravel. I through rode it on my road bike with zero issues, never once wishing I had larger tires (running 28mms) C&O however is a different creature, it does call for more substantial tires, and fenders can be a major plus in bad weather.

When I did the GAP/C&O I got passed by a young woman riding probably 32s, she also had an AK amp of one leg.

I know a guy who is an AK amputee. He’s really fast. He also plays hacky sack. Rarely see him since he bought a house and moved out of the ‘hood.

Did part of the C&O trail, definitely worth going!

Late to the party....this spring, and year has been very wet (Going back to December). We haven't had any dryness until the last two weeks and that's with a good dousing last Wednesday with many Tornadoes (Very unusual for the area).

This was a real stinker of a Spring. first part was wet cold, and windy. Middle felt on and off like July, and continued to be to hot after the end of May with very few exceptions. Any nice day was very windy. The last two weeks with a couple exceptions have had the nicest weather of the season. And here comes the blast furnace weather after this weekend with the annual humidity from hell.......

I road the NCR (very close to me) Tuesday and it was beautiful. Almost chilly by 9PM.

June 1st was barely into the 80's with a Dewpoint in the low 40's. Very uncommon in these parts.

damp (and even wet at times) not a real bad thing on the crushed limestone trails

they can be nasty when dry and dusty

^
Unless you like mud and riding through it. I have no use for wet trails, and never had a problem with a "dry" limestone trail.

Especially in the colder months. Never get enough sun and the trail never dries out. Especially along high rock formations on both sides. Sun angle never gets high enough to hit many spots along with cold.

Road through a few spots on the NCR the other day that are almost muddy, to slop in the cooler months the that were drying thanks to the warmer weather, high sun angle.

Those pics in the tenth post are unacceptable to me. Common, but not for me.

All of this really depends on the trail in question.

I saw two other folders on my trip, both Bike Fridays. A woman on a 700c gravel bike said that she was impressed that I was doing the trail on a folder, but I don't think it's that big of a deal, particularly on a relatively non-technical trail. Having good tires that can handle the mud are key, at any tire size.

When I was there in May, there were certainly parts of the trail that did not appear to get any sun, and I stayed at a couple of hiker-bike campsites that were pretty soggy. I was expecting bugs, so I tried to stay away from campsites near standing water, i.e., portions of the C&O. But bugs weren't really a problem; maybe it was too early in the season.

Anyways, here's Chapter 2 of my trip, from Dravo's Biker-Hiker to Ohiopyle on the Great Allegheny Passage:

The Gap is great, extremely well maintained. The C&O is nice,but suffers from poor maintenance. ( the Gap is maintained by volunteeers, the C&O by the National Park Service.

I would ride the Gap on road tires every day. We were on a tandem with 42 gravel kings. I was jealous of people on race bikes flying by on the Gap. Glad we had the 42’s on the C&O.

Given the quality wide tires you can get now, I would pick something like a Continental 5000 32 mm tire for the Gap. I’d have no hesitation to ride it on 25’s on my road bike that can’t fit any bigger.

I will offer a dissenting opinion. I ride the GAP often, I live just a few miles from it. I have also ridden the entire GAP and C&O. For all the negative thoughts on hte C&O, I will say I enjoy it much more than the GAP. It was just more interesting to ride. The GAP is endlessly the same. Once you hit the C&O it just seems more varied, more to scenic to me. The surface didn't bother me at all, and I rode during torrential downpours. Full coverage fenders are your friends.

I get your point about better scenery , more interesting stuff on the C&O. ( although the Youghiogheny River views are nice on the Gap).

The road surface on the C&O for the most part is not an issue with the right tires. However with rain it can be an extremely muddy slog, and the several areas that wash out repeatedly can be unrideable.

Personally, if I was picking one it would be the GAP, but the 2 together make a great through trip.

Keep in mind that the C&O is a historic path that was the Grand Old Ditch built almost 200 years ago. The path for small boys and mules. The NPS has to walk that fine line between historic preservation and public demand for “nice and smooth place to ride bicycles”. I can understand the much more primitive surface of the C&O in places. But, for me, it’s harder to ride. There is probably no best answer.

The NPS has answered the question in different ways at different sites: restrict the number and use of visitors - or improve facilities.



Turning large numbers of folks out on unimproved NP land seldom ends well.

Historic preservation: what is "correct"? Its 1850 operational level, or its 1930 derelict status? A poster on another site suggested the C&O be returned to wilderness, which I guess meant tearing out the locks, filling in the canal and rewilding the area back to a game trail.

Their guidelines are to preserve the trail surface as it was during the canal operation. What that means by their rules, is that the soil used on the trail has to match the composition of the trail's soil at that time it was in operation. I spoke to a park service worker who was doing some maintenance one day as I was riding the trail.

I think there're a few exceptions to that general rule. For instance, when they rebuilt the viaduct on the C&O a few years ago, the approaches somehow were rebuilt with gravel.