Sounds preposterous, like training to eat. But I plan a 3 100kms trip next spring on a tight schedule that won't give me any zero day if I ride my usual average of 100kms/day. Coincidentally I've purchased an entry-level trainer so I plan to try to improve my power.

1. I've raised my cadence from a 65 rpm baseline, up to the more generally recommended 80+. Faster cadence means less resistance for a given power level, which is probably desirable since I am not a strong rider.
2. I've attempted a spur-of-the-moment ramping-up FTP test, rather inconclusive because I couldn't keep up during the last 2 segments. Results suggest 205W. I comfortably push 135-150W in zone 2 HR (endurance) for 30 mins. (just starting...)
3. I have 2+ months before I can ride outdoors in reasonable weather. Current objective is to increase endurance power in the 150-180W range, which would be a considerable improvement over last year where the few data points I have suggest a sustained power of less than 100W over 6hrs.

I've read ACA's guidelines. Very general and apparently targeted at less experienced riders considering a rather leisurely 2-week summer tour. I've also read training guidelines for randonneurs, but brevets/audax being shorter and more intense than what I plan, I am ambivalent. I've also read training guidelnes for events like RAAM -- I might as well have read about the Tour de France. Way above my pay grade; overly ambitious for what I am planning to do.

So, in very concrete terms, I plan to ride 50-55 mins 5 days/week at HR 115bpm (upper limit of zone 2 in my case) at a cadence of 80-85 rpm, hoping to see power creeping up. I'll also perform a ramping-up FTP test on Fridays to tracks eventual improvements.

If someone in this community has expertise to share, I'll be happy to learn.

i believe you're overthinking it, but that's just my opinion.
these are only 100km days, not back-to-back centuries.

you've ridden enough to know what's comfortable, and when you need to take a break.
20km/hour is an easy enough pace, assuming you're not climbing the grossglockner pulling a steinway.
ride for an hour, take a 30-minute break to take photos, repeat.

saddlesore Actually, my average speed is closer to 16kmh. I'd be happy to average 20. Back of the envelope calculation suggests increasing average power from 95W to 130W.

Not sure where you are getting your wattage info from. Exercise bikes can be dreadfully terrible at giving good estimates on that. The exercise bike I use at the gym this year (they have some new bikes this year) told me yesterday that I was doing 150 watts for much of the hour that I was on the bike. I am 71 years young, I really wish that I could do 150 watts that easily, but no, it is not going to happen. Their older bikes usually had me struggling to maintain 120 watts.

The only wattage data that I trust is based on timed hill climbing. I am an engineer (retired), thus the math to calculate the watts needed to lift the weight of me and my bike X number of feet in Y minutes is based on formulae that I worked with in college, assuming no friction losses, etc. Thus, I have calculated wattage from actual riding up hills, and I know with certainty that the exercise bikes at the gym can't be trusted. And stairmasters at the gym use an assumed average person weight for calculating wattage, those can't be trusted either, unless you are able to enter your actual weight into the machine. I have calculated my personal wattage on a stairmaster the same way as on a bike using steps per minute and height of a step to calculate how many feet I climbed in an hour using my actual body weight.

Given your past touring experience, especially your UK trip, you probably have this figured out pretty well already. That said, too much focus on up to an hour of training every day or every other day is good for muscles and cardio, but it is not doing any endurance training to be able to fuel your muscles after your initial glucose stores are consumed. I think during your final month of training that you need to do at least a two hour continuous training session weekly to train your other organs for providing the fuel you need for endurance. Maybe a week before the trip try to do a four hour training session, but get off the bike for five minutes every hour if you do that. Since this is to train your internal organs, you do not want to be adding lots of carbs during this training. When I try to train in the spring before a brevet, I try to do at least three to five hours before I have any food, only have water or coffee (black). I want my body to be able to function on internal fat reserves for fuel during this training.

Example, two years ago a friend of mine that I have done several tours with before and I were planning to do Natchez Trace in early April. During winter, I was doing hour long bike sessions at the gym three times a week. Sometimes did stair master instead of bike. Natchez Trace is roughly 440 miles. Our longest planned day was 60 some miles. But I also planned to ride a 200k brevet on April 1 a few days before we left for Natchez Trace. So, I was out in February and March as soon as most of the snow and ice had melted (in southern Wisconsin) building up distance and continuous hours on the bike. In February I was doing 20 some mile long rides, late March I had increased that to 50 some mile rides, trying to find ice free places to ride. I usually try to do at least a 90 mile ride a week before I do a 200k brevet, but that did not happen this year.

Photo below was from one of my training rides, mid February, unfortunately this part of this trail had not been plowed, it was solid ice.



As April 1 approached, the forecasts were terrible for the day of that 200k brevet, so I canceled my plans for that as I was sure that I would DNF it. Forecast for the day of the brevet was for temp in the low 40s (F), winds in the 20s (MPH), and a bit of drizzle or snow, and the forecasts were accurate. I was glad I did not try to ride it, especially since my longest training ride was less than half the distance of a 200k.

But, doing a few 50 mile rides trying to prep for the brevet meant that I had forced my internal organs to function well to deliver the fuel I needed to ride past that first hour or two when you are burning stored glucose. Thus, I was ready for Natchez Trace. But, the friend of mine chose to just do interval training on a bike on a trainer, no training sessions were over an hour. When we started riding Natchez Trace in early April, during the first hour I had trouble keeping up with him. After two hours, we were both riding at about he same level of effort. After three hours, he was toast, but I was warmed up and ready to keep going for hours. My point is that you need some longer sessions than just an hour.

You have done a lot of touring before and if my memory is correct you had high distance days on your UK ride, so I think you will do fine regardless of how you train. But, given your route, I think you will have some zero days due to weather. If you can get ahead of schedule early on, that could provide the buffer you need for a few zero days.

And take a look at your route, how hilly is it? My bike tour last summer was flatter than most of my previous tours. I only had one day with a lot of nasty hills, my median day was 65.2 miles(104.9km), average was 57.3 miles (92.2km) and I had two days over 80 miles. But, this trip was quite unusually flat, my typical tours have much shorter distances. And I load my bike heavier than you load yours, you probably would have been able to do much longer distances than me. Photo below as from my tour last summer, this photo was about half way through one of my 80+ mile days.

A rule of thumb I learned from runners, that's always worked for me, is to train to 30% of the hardest pace you want to do. So when I had a goal of riding 600 miles/week on a cross-US tour, I trained the winter before to 200 miles/week, and that worked beautifully. Similarly, on some long distance treks (AT, PCT, CDT), I wanted to walk 20 mile days consistently, I just trained to about 7 miles per day. It still took time and commitment, but it worked great, no training injuries.

Tourist in MSN Thanks for your contribution. (1) I ride my bike on the trainer, which is equipped with a Stages PM. So while I do not put that much faith on the actual numbers, it is still a useful indication of the evolution of my power output, over time (weeks, months, years). (2) completely agree with your point that training for (or getting used to) long days in the saddle is important. I'll certainly ride a few centuries before the start of my trip. My objective is to be in a good enough shape such that I can sustain 150kms/day, days on end, whereas now I was more likely to average 100-130; or perhaps more accurately, as I am 68, I want to determine if my stamina remains quite constant. For now, it looks like it -- knock on wood.

Yep, familiar with suggestions like these. But they apply to endurance rather than speed. My objective is to see if I can increase my average riding speed. The usual advice is High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT). I'll have to read some more to understand the principle (frequency, intensity, effectiveness). I can only say that anecdotal evidence suggests that untrained cyclists trying to improve their power output often claim rapid increases in the 25% range.

I've got 5 years on you, returned to recreational road biking mid-'23. In SW Wisconsin now, I'm interested in whether you're willing to share your formula? I mounted a 4iiii-augmented crank arm a couple weeks back 'cause I don't trust what my Wahoo trainer feeds me for power #'s. Figure closer to the source'd be more trustworthy.

It has been a few years since I did those calcs. Basically I did a horsepower calculation first then, converted to watts.

I just did a google search, found this (pasted):
Explanation: The term "horsepower" was coined by James Watt to describe the power needed to lift 550 pounds one foot in one second, essentially comparing the power of a steam engine to that of a horse

So, it was pretty easy using that to calculate from my weight with bike, the hill height was 95 feet based on several readings from my GPS, and how long it took me to pedal up it. That gave me my horsepower (or fraction of it), then converted that to watts.

That hill is near my home, if I want to do hill training, I do a loop that includes that hill. Thus, from elevation profiles I have dozens of measurements for height of hill from my GPS.

I'd always assumed that Strava's power estimates were based on those simple calculations, and that their estimates on average power on a climb* aren't as bad as some think. You can even enter your weight and the weight of your bike.

* the longer/higher the climb, the better. And the fewer environmental factors (i.e.., wind, road surface, etc...) the better.

I try to avoid setting a time table with distances for long tours. My foreign tours that involved air travel were loops, on those I planned a rough route, then had several bailout options late in the trip where I could cut distance off near the end if I needed to. But, I often deviated from my plans on those trips.

I know my stamina has declined. But I don't have measurements for that. When I work out I just do that based on heart rates. Usually have my heart rate in the 120s to 130s when I exercise on a bike at the gym.

On long rides I also use heart rate as a guide. I do not have heart problems, but I use a heart rate monitor to avoid having heart problems. It is easy for me on uphills to shoot past my max heart rate, when that happens I get off the bike and walk until the heart rate is much lower. I see my Dr in a week or two again, for a while my heart rate has been on my list of things to discuss with him again.

For some reason I thought you were in your 40s or maybe 50s at the most. Did not realize how close you are to my age.

They might be. I have not used Strava.

I will add that 3100 KM without any zero days, or shorter days for that matter, doesn't sound very enjoyable. Yes, 100KM in a day isn't that bad, but not allowing for any shorter day, or any off days just doesn't sound like a fun tour. Things happen, bad weather happens, and often you pass by things you want to take time to see.

One thing that I read years ago and that's stuck with me is that power is directly related to muscle mass, and specifically the cross-sectional area of a muscle. That explains why sprinters have such thunderous thighs, and why we lose power as we age; we are losing muscle mass.

HIIT, sprint intervals, and the like work to improve power by increasing muscle mass. Z2 and Z3 work on other things but aren't really geared at increasing muscle mass.

One thing that others here have said really helps is strength training in the gym. That's one of the things sprinters do too. I've got to give that a try myself.

I've got different goals but I'm trying to mix Z3, intervals, and rest days to build my speed and endurance. It's the traditional formula. I'm using Zwift to help while the weather is inconsistent and the days short. I recently did an indoor ride at the same power output as several weeks before, but my average heart rate was 20bpm lower. That's progress, I think.

Best of luck.

Which is precisely why I want to increase my base distance. If I cover 150kms/day, it translates into one zero day every three days.

You lose muscle mass as you age but perhaps more important you lose bone density and bone strength. If you regularly stress your bones, they are stronger. Runners have great bone density but bicyclists have terrible bone density.

I know several people my age that fell and cracked a pelvis or hip or broke an arm, simply from a fall. If they were 20 years younger, I am sure they would not have broken anything.

In winter when I am not regularly cycling outside, I try to go to the gym three times a week. Do about 25 minutes of strength exercises and stretching exercises. Some of these were ones that I thought made sense or a trainer had told me to do years ago, some at the suggestion of a physical therapist. Then 60 minutes on a bike or stairmaster. I also do backpacking in the summer, so when I do a stairmaster I wear hiking boots with ankle weights.

The strength exercises, I am setting the weights on the machines so it is REALLY hard to push. That is to stress my bones. I am sure it helps for muscle mass too, but the main reason I am doing those exercises is for bone strength, not for muscle mass. That is why I set the weights so high, I want the bones to be stressed. For leg strength I do the leg press. I do the most weights that I can actually do. About every month or so, I will add another weight, if I can't push it, then back down. I had a bone density test a couple years ago, result was classed as normal.

During summer when I am biking outside, I drop to one trip a week to the gym, I steadily lose strength during the summer because I am not going as often, slowly have to reduce how many weights I can lift. Then in fall, start building muscle mass and bone stress all over again.

I should note that I am retired, if I was not it would be tough to find the time to do this. It is almost like a part time job.

Sounds even worse to me. Have you ever toured before?

He has toured a lot.

I'm confused on why you see this as more of a speed issue than an endurance issue.

If I use your numbers from above, it seems the baseline is an average of 100km by ~16km/h = ~6 hours
- Starting with that assumption approaching as a speed issue, imagine perhap 20km/h so now one might travel ~120km in the same time allowing for more margin overall on a 3100km trip to average longer days.
- Approaching instead as an endurance issue, if one extended cycling time to ~7.5 hours then one also gets to a similar ~120km in the same time.

I assume your 150km/day is more of an far end point (at least as far as averages) but approaching it *only* in one dimension would be:
- speed needs 24km/h to keep a similar time
- endurance needs ~9.5 hours to keep a similar speed
I suspect where you are pushing longer distances you'll likely push some of both but I also guess at least as much endurance comes into play since you want to do this in a repetitive fashion mostly day after day. Unless you have a much stronger constraint such as daylight hours or limited time windows [e.g. to catch ferries or with limited time windows like Logan Pass] I expect the longer hours in the saddle part will be at least as important.

As I've gotten older, my favored average distance per day has decreased e.g. first trip across US was 95 miles/day average including rest days, more recent trips closer to ~45-50 miles/day average including rest days. That is mostly because of taking shorter days than going faster. Hence for me at least, increasing my average distances/day would be more about increasing time in the saddle.

Hi Gauv, when I look back at my average speeds more or less for pretty much all of my touring experience going back decades, is pretty much in the 16kph or 10mph range.
I can't really see getting that average a lot higher because 1- I'm just getting older and need to take care of my body , and 2- this really seems for me the right amount of speed and enjoying the experience -- but with the caveat that I accept that I am a pretty average rider and that is just what I am and thats okay.

I've always been surprised over the years how much more effort it takes to get an average speed up. Sure, I've had lightly loaded days with not a lot of climbing and or favourable tailwinds where I go faster, but all in all, I just don't train that hard and realize that my average speed is what it is.

For doing non stop days, I can only speak for myself, but I get tired of that. I can also get run down and have developed a cold or sore throat from not taking a break. I also just like the rhythm of taking a rest day, recuperating a bit, going over the bike and cleaning it well, checking things, that sort of thing, or simply walking around a town for a change of pace, not being rushed etc etc

as to your question about training, I do agree that doing indoor training work does help a lot. I've never done hours and hours of it, but it does get the legs ready to an extent.
cheers

True. I referred to speed but might as well have mentioned endurance. Probably because endurance (i.e. more hours in the saddle) is the first thing that comes to mind when figuring out how to cover more ground in a day, and while there are certainly questions to ask (how many hours is too many, i.e. preventing recovery), the principle is fairly straightforward compared to power (is it reasonable to expect a meaningful power increase thru casual training, and how to do it best)

So let me say that at the moment I am trying to see if power can be improved by training. My tentative answer after a few days is that it is very likely -- I've raised my cadence from 65 to 80+ and unless I pedal with correspondingly less force, that should mean more power, i.e. more distance per hour.

Hello David

As john m flores indicated, power is related to muscle mass. Not clear how much muscle mass one can get through training. In my case, I've observed a (small) increase in muscle mass since I got into touring. But age and genetics make it such that there's perhaps not much to expect from this.

Taking a step back -- my question was about the likelihood that training will lead to increased power. At this point in time I would answer a definite, but qualified yes. (1) It has led to an increase in cadence, which should translate into a power increase (not enough data yet, but indications that this will happen); (2) and perhaps some conditioning that will make me push a little harder/better. My quick superficial scan of related posts suggest a 25% increase in FTP. Asking generative models suggests 10-20% improvement in FTP. Asking about why training improves FTP, the model adds factors *other* than larger muscular mass. The first being cardio, followed by several neuro-muscular effects. Asked further about the impact of cadence, contrary to my understanding the model suggests that cadence does *not* have a direct impact on power.

Still learning...

Two comments:

One, If you're asking AI, be aware that it is often wrong. I use it every day; yesterday in particular I was amazed at the stuff it was making up. It was claiming that things happened later this year already, it was getting dates wrong, it was making up broken links as its source for information.

When using AI, I will always ask for the source of their information and then click on the link they provide and confirm. Often, I'll simply ask, "Are you sure about that?" and they'll apologize for making stuff up.

AI is both smarter than you AND dumber than you at the same time.

Two, I haven't done physics since the 1900s, but the formula for power (P) is pretty simple: P = Work (W)/Time (t), or P = W/t.

• Riding (W) further in an hour (t) than you used to is an increase in Power (P).
• Inversely, riding 20 miles (W) in less time (t) than you used to is also an increase in Power (P).

To answer your question about cadence and it's relation to power, we need to define Work (W). That formula is simple too: W = Force (F) * Distance (d), or W = F * d.

• If you are in the same gear (F) and increase your cadence (d), you increase your Work (W)
• If you choose an easier gear (F) and increase your cadence (d), whether your Work (W) increases depends upon how much easier the gear (F) is. There's a tipping point where an easier gear (F) and an increased cadence (d) does not result in more Work (W) but it can shift the stress away from your muscles (F) to your cardiovascular system (d). That's what downshifting on hills does.

To put it all together,

• If you stay in the same gear (F) and increase your cadence (d), you increase your work (W). Take that increased (W) and apply it to the power formula, and you've also increased your power (P). Zone 2 and Zone 3 workouts focus on improving your cardio so that you can either increase your cadence or hold your cadence longer before running out of breath.
• Strength exercises/building muscle mass opens up the opportunity to increase the force you apply to the pedals (F) while maintaining the same cadence (d). That also increases work (W) and power (P). This is what Z4 and Z5 workouts primarily improve.
• Doing Z2, Z3, and Z4 workouts increases your power in both ways.

Again, I haven't done physics since the 1900s, so if I've got anything wrong, I hope that someone will correct me.

john m flores

1. WRT AI - yes yes, do not blindly believe generative models' output. This being said I use them on a daily basis (programmatically and interactively; I can explain what temperature and top_p mean; I have firsthand data to support the fact that their performance improves extremely fast; etc.). I've quoted it (poe or chatGPT 4o or gemini 2.0 -- I forget) because I thought that the reply was interesting/unexpected -- increased muscular mass what *not* one of the major benefit attributed to training. This is something I'll certainly look into because training (for guys) is often associated with building muscles (weight lifting + protein supplements). Anyhow.

2. As I am slowly integrating the various components of W (i.e. total expenditure of energy required to cover some distance), I'll try to learn a thing or two about the cadence/force relationship. e.g. if any increase/decrease in cadence is exactly compensated by an equivalent decrease/increase in force, then trying to modify cadence would be moot. Since most advice suggests that "optimal" cadence (which varies mysteriously across individuals) is somewhere in the 80-90 rpm range, I would assume that moving from, say, 50 rpm up to 70 rpm would increase W. (not being an engineer nor physicist, this is obviously a stretch for me

3. FWIW I came across this sheet. Interesting. It emphasizes the importance of glycogen intakes (aka fueling). I usually rely on a popular brand of caramel/peanuts chocolate bar available in most service stations. Perhaps also worth looking into.

[EDIT]
4. Touring, even at the edges of one's abilities, is not racing. I personally enjoy learning about things. Unexpected mysteries, unexpected findings -- that sort of things. I do not worry about next Spring, I do not shoot for a Guinness entry. Let's say that I don't want to be stuck in Luleå, knowing that there's no way I'll reach Alta in time to catch my return flight. A few zero days in hand would be useful. The question is how to get them. (Public transit, hitchkining being alternative answers.)
[/EDIT]

I try to avoid getting too deep into the power and work type math when thinking about bicycling and touring. That said, I think cadence increase can increase power, but it is not a guarantee that it will. Over a decade ago, my cadence was usually in the 72 to 78 range when exercising. Now, closer to 66.

When you think about professional bike racers, they can put out huge wattage, but they need a really high cadence to do that because the amount of downward force that they can push down on the pedals is a function of their weight, and they usually are skinny little guys that can't put too much weight on a pedal. So, cadence is the way for them to get more power without having to get heavier.

But keep in mind oxygen intake is also a cap for your power, so boosting cadence has its limits.

I am a low wattage rider. Lab tests show that my red cell count is way below normal range. And just about any other medical lab test also shows that I just naturally have a lot less oxygen carrying capacity than the normal person. There is not really anything I can do to fix that. So, I just accept that. And that might be why I am more likely to get off the bike and push up some of the steeper hills, I just do not have the wattage available to maintain the speed needed on steep hills to maintain balance.

If you are starting to look at a scheduled carb boost, you are really starting to make your tour more of a race.

This is the reference that I often cite for energy sources and energy needs.
https://www.roadbikerider.com/energy...e-intensities/

I consider myself to be between the low and medium level when bike touring. I often have more carbs on a bike tour than at home, but I do not go out of my way to increase carb levels on a tour. For one thing I have diabetes and need to have a low carb diet to keep my blood sugar down. But long days in the saddle means that I can have a lot more carbs on a bike tour while I am riding as long as I do not overdo it.

Example, I did a 200k brevet last year and was pleasantly surprised to learn that the box of mini cupcakes fit perfectly in my handlebar bag. Ate almost all of them during that ride. But, I was riding harder and longer on that brevet than I do on bike tours. Thus, I was burning the carbs as I ate them.



Don't forget protein. When I came home from one of my tours, I had some weird physical issues. Was at my Dr office the next day after I got home. Lab tests showed I had a severe protein deficiency. Now, when I bike tour, backpack, or any other strenuous activity for hours, I try to remember to have some protein at the end of that exertion for muscle recovery. When bike touring, I have a 20 gram protein bar when I get to the campsite every day. That is in addition to all my other protein sources.

After I wrote the above paragraph on protein, I suddenly remembered you have done some long days on past tours, I was tempted to delete that paragraph but chose not to. A reminder never hurts, even though I am sure you already knew a lot of this stuff that I just wrote.