you grumpy old codgers!

The funny thing is that I actually agree with you guys, and saddle, I still use hand drawn stuff sometimes and or a paper map just to keep track visually and not have to either look at a screen or. use up battery of a screened device for no reason.
A good example, a few years ago I biked around some parts of Holland, and while there are a million bike paths around and there is a fantastically simple phone app to show you what bikepath network to use, ie to get from Town A to town B, go from bike path junction 26 to junction 19 to junction 98....etc etc
I just wrote down on paper the sequence of "junctions" to head to and it was simple, had a basic map with me also, but also could easily check up where I was on my phone if need be.
Easy peasy

but doing offroad trips following a gps unit is great, it works fantastically where there are numerous paths and easy to not take the right one. When I biked in Scotland a few years ago, I was on roads sometimes and it was pretty straightforward, take X road until town B, then another road to town C, not a lot of options and easy to figure out which one.
Bikepacking through a National Park was different and it was super useful and fun to follow a gpx route -- I still had some paper map backups in case the gps broke or I crashed and smashed it, but didnt need them and it would have been a pain in the arse to use them due to the small details I would have had to figure out , not to mention the sometimes pouring rain....

so yup, simple often works fine, but modern technology works too.
same with driving a car, I use google maps more and more and it saves time and money

now--having the ability to have a sense of direction and think past just what a device tells you, thats another matter, and is a whole other topic.
Some people, including those dear to me, are fricken hopeless and do not have, nor ever had , any sense of direction and cant read a map or use any sort of common sense direction wise --- but thats how they are....

and as another partially grumpy old codger, modern technology is probably dumbing down a lot of people who just dont learn basic navigation skills because they do not have to.....

Lets say I want to take a 100+ mile bike trip across Maine to the coast at Camden. I first consult Komoot for a route. It suggests this route from where I'd hit the state line at Stow ME. But Komoot only provides a blue line from point A to B without any route labels or towns, only two cities partly obscured by icons ...

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bb8c3092ca.png


I'll zoom in close for clarifications. Komoot will then provide superb road details even with contour lines, but in tunnel vision. This is only 3.5 miles of travel out of 115. When I zoom back out most detail is lost ...

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0785594709.png


The paper map of Maine shows every village & city plus every State, US & Interstate highway along with many of the smaller connector roads as well. It shows where each is in relation to the others in one view. This is what I mean about the Big Picture ...

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...56b765e768.jpg

this paper map, where are the off roads, the gravel roads farm from motorised traffic?¿ can´t see them ....looking at that map I see lots of infrastructure for lots of cars ....

here a online map, RIDEwithGPS. all these discontinued doble brown lines are gravel roads.

P.S. never ever let an app build an automatic route.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a4131bbba5.png

They can if one wants them to be. I did it 25 years ago during a 7 week tour of a foreign country. I could do it again if I so chose, just like I still use paper cue sheets for tours up to two weeks.

Sorry to inform you, but what is relevant to someone is what they choose to do. What is relevant to you doesn’t represent the universe of relevance. Try to grasp that.

Just because it doesn't work for you, does not mean it is ridiculous (sort of harsh opinion) for everyone. For instance, this past summer on my two month tour across western Europe, I did in fact see about a dozen times in a campground, someone reviewing a map. Some were just using a map of the local area and that is were their tour was going. But I talked to one couple with young kids and they only used maps (no electronics other than a very basic bike computer to record/show total miles and daily trip miles. I asked if they used Komoot or something and they said they prefer the maps. Got to admit, this sort of surprised me as they were in their early 30s and their kids were easily under 8yo. The dad and the older kid rode a tandem while pulling the 2nd child in a trailer and the mom pulled the "gear" trailer. They were on a 18 month tour of all of Europe (north, south, east, & west). I also talked to one guy on a multi-year world tour who used a map as a general reference to basically just look at what roads connected to the next town as he had no firm destination in mind most days. He also only used a very basic computer and no GPS or other electronics other than occasionally consulting a phone for services, i.e. a campground, grocery, etc. I didn't talk with everyone with a map but it was not a totally rare sight.

“What I do is the only relevant’ way.” is a recurring refrain.

Thats kind of not accurate. I’ve found the auto routes that RWGPS creates usually useful. Thing is you need to double check using Google satellite and street view to verify the roads.

I think that is part of it, but some people feel that everybody should always buy the latest gizmos out there, even when older tech is perfectly useable. My nephew is like that.

I admit to being a sucker for new tech. I recently purchased a recently released cycling GPS, Coros Dura. It was a good deal, so why not. Specs says it runs 125 hrs., has a built in solar charger. In my testing not sure it’s going to get that kind of battery life, will keep using to determine. For well under half the cost of a Garmin 850, it seems to have about 85% of the functionality. They’ve generally done a good job with it. I’m only using for ride tracking and occasional navigation and after some struggling with getting it configured (instructions as minimal) did get it to do what I need it to do. On a sunny ride today, it did tell my the solar charger added 1.8% to battery life.

Just a random paved road trip I could start from my doorstep without using a car, Stefan. A convenient destination to show the paper "Big Picture" with lots of information vs the digital "Big Picture" with minimal information. Not a trip I'm planning to do. Horizontal orientation works better for map screenshots so I chose a hypothetical trip from west to east. Lots of gravel in Maine but you need to return to the "Small Picture" view from a digital source to view in detail.

Yes, a bit congested around Lewiston. The paper map seems to express that congestion bettter than the Komoot version. That said, Komoot does a good job weaving through the mess. It crosses the big highways south of Augusta, it doesn't follow them. Google Street View does show viewed locations to be safe, some with a shoulder.

But shouldn't a can-opener be able to convert Dollars to Euros to Yen and give you the weather forecast, too?

To continue this discussion in the appropriate thread, thank you for proving my point, 25 years ago maps were the best option and yes you could do the same today however it is by far not the method of choice. FYI current routing software provides Cue sheets as well.

I hope this is not interpreted by you to be trolling it’s just with this seniors dominated forum the responses read like a Bicycle Magazine in 1977. To realistically argue that paper maps play an active roll in current bike touring is not realistic. Much like Aviation, car navigation and boating paper maps and charts have been replaced. But yes if you so choose maps enjoy.

I still use paper maps, ergo they are relevant. And I enjoy making my own cue sheets because the exercise allows me to memorize the route. You should try to develop that skill along with brushing up on punctuation. :lol:

Let’s eat grandma!
Let’s eat, grandma!

I am sensing SqueezeB. Doing the Katy Trail again?

To do the currency conversions, I use my slide rule. The abacus is used for the weather forecast. But I still find the can opener is best for opening cans.

I caught our co-pilot using paper maps & cue sheets on a flight out of Antarctica! :eek:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4ba48d37c0.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e7c59b3edc.jpg

That looks like a cf130, very distinctive cockpit windows

Yep! Exterior photo added above.

Atlas Shrugged, my personal opinion is you are coming across as slightly superior / slightly arrogant. Not trying to sound rude, just stating what I perceive. As I said at the start, there is no wrong answer. As you imply with your last sentence, use what works for you. I welcome your opinion on what works for you but please do not denigrate others' choices. I would guess the vast majority of us agree GPS & online tools definitely have their place and are very usefully for many/most riders. However, some people like the "comfort" of older methods, sort of like reading a newspaper on a computer vs. in print, and that is perfectly fine. As long as they are not forced on you, what difference does it make if others prefer paper maps?

Just my 7 cents (inflation and all).

P.S. In 1977, there were no electronics other than electronic watches and I think maybe the Huret dual cyclometer was the state of the art. Best to you.

Rethinking this, my favorite method is asking a local because very often they'll not only tell me how to get to where I want to but also interesting places I was not even aware of.

Yeah, GPS is great and all but it can also be isolating.

Sorry to disagree, most locals most of the time do not move at all from their normal habitat. "Can i cycle that road to XY village?" .... ""OMG, no! that road is impossible to cycle with bicycle! it is very steep!!"" is the answer. or: ""what village, never heard about that village, what was the name of that village again?¿""
and the village is only 2h away.

and so on... 95% of locals do not have any idea about cycling and the place they live in.

remote diagnosis, analysis¿? a typical internet thing... you gave yourself the answer already: ""just stating what I perceive"".
never ever someone would say something like this in real live sitting at a table. one could see the mimics, expressions of the person ....
only here in a forum we ""think"" that we can ""see"" and ""listen"" to a person and "know" that person.

As far as fun (favorite), I agree with you. As far as accuracy (favorite), I've had mixed results - though that doesn't mean I still ask. I consider it part of a broader portfolio of information I collect together. A few things I've learned:
- I like to ask comparison question like, is (pointing) this way more hilly than (pointing) that way... instead of more absolute "how far", "how hilly" type questions.
- In places where my accent is a problem, I'll also write things down, e.g. south India
- I like to ask more than one person along the way and compare their answers

What I find fun is there can be a wide variety of accuracy in the responses - everything from someone fairly naive things from someone who can't imagine cycling - to some pretty useful and additional information I never would have gotten from GPS. For example, on a construction or road closure I've had everything from people who live right next to it not really know - to a rather interesting temporary route.

Also had a local cyclist in Estonia take me on a guided trip down the back lanes to a castle in Estonia I otherwise never would have visited.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...07314058d8.jpg
This led to an interesting change on my day to visit a castle and then also a story in the local newspaper...
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9cda4c7094.jpg

​​​​​​For sure, I take a sarcastic and chippy tone in many of my responses. But I get it back, so all is fair and no harm done. Virtually all the contentious debates I get involved in are disputing long-entrenched beliefs that are no longer relevant. In defence, I consistently attempt to debate the merits of the discussion in factual, current terms, not on how things were done 40 years ago and are still effective today regardless of the compromises. My opponents' responses rarely involve debating the facts; instead, they ignore the bulk of the reaction, cut out a small excerpt, and attempt to leverage it to dissect the full position. Or point out a typo or grammatical error and try to score a point that way.

Take this paper vs digital mapping and routing debate. I propose beginning a bike tour in Barcelona and finishing in Toulouse via Andorra. The thought of building a route out of Barcelona along the most popular and efficient bike routes, then across the countryside, ending with entering the core of Toulouse with paper maps and cue sheets, makes absolutely no sense, and the resulting route would be vastly inferior to a digitally built one. The almost infinitely variable zoom feature in digital mapping solutions easily overcomes the big-picture canard that the pro-paper map advocates base their debates on.

As previously noted, the US Government no longer even produces paper marine navigation charts, nor do they produce printed aviation charts, instead focusing on digital mapping. The classic gas station map our families relied on when driving to Wally World is also mostly gone, and paper road maps are a special-order product used by an ever-diminishing cohort of holdouts. The thought of navigating through a urban centre to a specific location with paper maps is downright primitive compared to the current digital alternative.

Can you still tour using paper maps? Of course. Is it the best and most popular option? No. Is a hybrid solution reasonable for those doing a short tour? Sure, but otherwise superfluous and actually a hindrence on a long distance tour.

Ps. Please excuse any gramatical and typographic errors english 12 was a long time ago!

It would have been nice if you would have simply told us that we are all your opponents on this forum, then we all in unison could have ignored you without wasting our time feeding your desire to argue.

Do not bother responding, you are on my ignore list. I won't respond.

Thank you for supporting my point regarding the selective cutting of my post and making the response personal not regarding the topic at hand. I don’t agree with your premise that these forums should be an echo chamber of legacy beliefs and heretics need to be shunned.

This is my cockpit which has served me well over tens of thousands of miles of touring. I will now post it incessantly whenever there is the remotest connection with the topic at hand. Notice the one device capable of all necessary requirements including a bell to alert those inattentive souls.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3b83b78bc.jpeg