I don't consider touring bikes and tandems to be modern high performance vehicles.

A more appropriate comparison would be to ask whether 18-wheelers and dump trucks and greyhound buses use disc or drum brakes?

When my Sturmey Archer drum brake (pictured in a previous post) was made in the 1960s, it compared reasonably well with the alternatives for brakes on bikes at that time, especially in the rain. Some bikes still used rod brakes at that time.

Quit fooling around and get a SA XL drum brake in the front hub. Mine has 32,000 miles and now on it's 3rd bike. Stops exactly as well as my new one.
ZERO chance it ever got more than warm.
The OP setup has a 99% chance of failing on the first hill at 35 mph. LOL What trash. The stays look like twigs.
The whole idea of a drag brake is a 3rd brake. So that excludes the other silly attempt with the removed canti.
Anyway, a disc brake is great for stopping but a POOR drag brake. It'll fry in no time. OTOH My Rohloff DIY disc mount is 100% successful.

Before it I had a 98% useless caliper for 13.500 miles. So I crossed Vietnam, 900 miles in China and across BC to Seattle where I got it welded.
I had ZERO problems stopping or slowing the 290 lbs with ONLY my SA XL-FDD in the middle of clay hills or 10 mile hill etc.
Actually I dangerously went down a 7 block STEEP hill in N. Vanc. I had to nibble down 3 feet at a time on the sidewalk. It would have been a struggle even getting off the bike. Before that I only barely pushed my bike up another steep hill in the east side.
>> Anybody saying SA drum brakes aren't good must of had the small size or an antique like shown post #17. My CCM has the small hub. The big one would look silly in a 650B rim.
The long brace arm Rohloff is 10 times better too. It saved me in a couple crashes actually.
This is a tandem fork from R+E, they raked it to 66 mm and added 6 mm brazeons. I changed it from 53.5 trail to 61. Handles beautifully now.

My 5 minutes of research says that price is the driving factor for trucks and buses using drums over discs. Also, any brake pushed to the limits of performance is high performance in my estimation.

Yes, I recall they were fairly small hubs.

The cooling fins on the roller brake on my Nexus IGH are about the same size as a disc brake rotor. I wonder if they actually overheat worse despite technically being a type of drum brake:


That said, I like what someone else said re adding any third brake to the front. Weight shifts front when stopping anyway. Getting a new fork with disc brake mounts is also cheap and easy. I got a carbon rigid fork with disc mounts for $65 the other day.

GamblerGORD53, I'll take that bet. This coming summer I will be loaded going through the UP of Michigan. The hills are short, but steep and I will have ample opportunity to test it in a non-mountain region. Speeds on those hills with an unladen bike can reach 50mph, albeit for a short distance.
The question is, when the drag brake proves successful, what is the payout?
Note, when we sold tandems we stocked Santana. They had a 200+mm rear rotor to be used as a drag brake, and the other two brakes were rim brakes intended to stop the bike.
Drag brakes are not a regular "third" brake as they are not in service to be used to stop the bike. They are only there to help control speed, and are very effective at doing the job.

The number of times I ever wanted a drag brake is ZERO. LOL. My SA XL-RD5w has done 46 mph. I'll slam on the brakes at any speed, NO worries.
It was actually TOO good, my first fork snapped clear across like a lazer hit it, above a brazeon and 2 more times at the same spot.
My last roadster came with a Nexus 7i and that 100% STUPID boat anchor roller brake. And yes their own manual says they heat up like a firecracker in 2 seconds. Don't touch for 30 minutes. Cooling fins?? Hilarious. NO LBS will ever stock that high heat grease either.
>> My SA drum brake wouldn't get one fingertip dirty in thousands of miles. Dirt just gets ground up and shed out I guess.
I give the pads and drum a wipe with 180 sandpaper and a dab grease on the cam. Done.
And actually rollers are HEAVIER than my SA XL dyno drum brake. Both the front and rear wheels. LOL. How's that for GARBAGE technology from none other than Shimano???
One hill on a tour bike and they would be on fire. LOL. I can feel them grinding. Actually they are more like an external COASTER greased brake.

I probably don't need a drag brake, but it has been a fun part of my winter activities getting it to fit the bike and then work. Gotta do something in the lousy winter weather. Today I spent 8 hours in the basement shop working to get the Old Man Mountain Divide rack fitted to the heavy touring bike. It is a lot of fun to take scrap metal and turn it into something useful. If I had power tools such as an electric metal saw and a durable cut-off wheel to fit to my rotary tool the time would be a lot less than 8 hours!

I did a tour around Lake Michigan that included a part of the UP on the bike below (about 100 lbs for bike and load with an additional 240 lbs for me) and I never ran across anything that the cantilever brakes couldn’t handle. A map of the route never really goes over about 4% grade.



I’ve done tours with a similar load on a similar bike (different color but same brand and model and same components) that have included 40+mph descents on 9% grades in the Poconos like this one without feeling like the brakes weren’t up to the task.



Even when I hit 55 mph on a rainy (drizzly at that point) downhill in North Carolina with a similar load and that similar bike, I never felt out of control



Honestly, I haven’t used a drag brake on tandems in decades. There really is no need for one on a single bike…even when loaded.

Seems we are in agreement, there is no real need for a drag brake on the bike, however there is no real need for a lot of things in life, especially bicycles. GPS, carbon frames and bits, waterproof panniers, etc. yet we do involve ourselves in them. Shucks, disc brakes are not a real need as rim brakes are just fine and have served bicycles well over the past 100 years. Just go with the fun in the flow and get rhythm.

I have one disc brake, that is on my Lynskey rear. And a V brake with Koolstop Salmon pads on the front of that bike. The disc unit is a Spyre, they recommended compressionless brake cable, that I bought and used for the install.

On that bike I wanted better braking on the disc, switched to a cheap resin brake pad to get that better braking. With that modification, the front and rear brakes work roughly equally well in dry conditions. Wet conditions, the disc works better after a few wheel revolutions wipes the water off the disc. But with the resin pad, the disc will fade after about a drop of 400 feet on a steep decline, the V brake does not fade on that hill like the disc does.

On that Lynskey, I found out the hard way that the front V brake is too good. Some moron in the left lane suddenly decided that they wanted to change to the right lane to make a very sudden panic stop, I was in that right lane and had to jump on the brakes hard, went over the handlebars. Had a sore rib for several weeks, one brake cable adjuster hit something and broke, otherwise no real damage. Three cars stopped to see if I needed an ambulance, but nobody got the license plate number off the car. I doubt if any disc brake would have done any better.

My other bikes with V brakes or canti brakes are fully adequate at stopping.

I have never ridden a tandem, can't make any comparisons with a drag brake based on experience. But the beefy drum brakes that I have seen on older tandems clearly looked like they were a lot more capable than the little drum brakes I have seen on solo bicycles like my 1960s vintage utility bike.

Quite frankly the side mounted drum brakes I have seen on Tandems looked more capable than the rear drum brake that was bolted onto the side of the hub on my vintage Triumph motorcycles, but those Triumph drum brakes always performed great.

A loaded tandem with two people weighing in at 160 pounds is easily 350+ pounds with gear. Then add the bike weight and the total thing is pushing 400 pounds. Our tandem customers that toured always requested the drum brake option. In fact it was so common that we stocked an Arai drum because we sold several each year. Bummer is that when Santana made the disc drag brake available (talking custom frame) the drum went to the wayside and after holding on to it for 35 years it found its way to the recycling.

I failed to mention in the leg coming down Michigan from the Mighty Mac bridge I will be going along the lake shore and passing through the Traverse City area. There are plenty of steep grades to be used for testing, or so says my friend that lives up there. He will be riding with me. It is likely I will eventually remove it as it adds a pound or more weight to the rig, and it is already over weight without it.

re "dragging brakes" in general, cycco will back me up on this one -- its just not a good idea to drag brakes, any brake, for any period of time.
Good hard application of brakes to bleed off some speed, then let off to allow heat to go down a bit, then good hard braking again, repeat -- this is the same in cars as well, to avoid overheating and fading braking systems.
Dragging rim brakes or disc systems will cause overheating and fading, I've done this in cars as well as touring in mountains with bikes with rim or disc brakes.
I've toured a lot in mountains loaded up, and while I am a light rider, not dragging brakes is key.
It's all about managing heat and keeping it at a reasonable level.

I am however very comfortable at speed and judging safe speeds for the conditions.

I have not ridden a tandem bike and when I worked in a bike shop never worked on one, so maybe I am wrong here, but it is my understanding that the purpose of a drag brake on tandems is for those long downhills where a solo bike brake system would be overwhelmed. Thus, it is a third brake, only applied for those situations where you need it. Was mounted on the non-drive side rear hub on bikes with rim brakes.

On my loaded solo touring bike going down Going to the Sun Road westbound for a drop of several thousand feet, I stopped twice to check how hot my rims were and one of those times waited for the rims to cool before I continued. That route is about 6 percent grade, so not that steep but it seems to go on for a very long time.

My wife and I are pushing 400 pounds pretty hard without any gear. Our current bike has discs without a drag brake and we have no issues with braking. Back when I was riding with child stokers, I was still around 300 lbs all in. I took the drum brake off because it really wasn’t doing anything other than adding weight. That bike had cantilevers which up to the task of braking.

I toured through that area. Again, I never ran across any steep hills. Certainly not like the short, steep hills you find all over the eastern US.

Yup. Couldn’t have said it better. I can find roads within a few miles of my house where it is possible to push over 50mph without much effort for many miles. If I have to slow down, I hit the brakes hard, back off, hit the brakes hard again, and repeat as needed. Even on steep rocky terrain like below, I don’t drag my brakes all the way down. I’m applying them more often but I don’t keep them on all the time.




I’m from a mountainous state and learned how to drive in mountains as well as ride in mountains. I’ve never had a brake system overheat nor fade while driving. On my bike, I let it fly and pulse brake. In a car, I use the gears to descend. I can drive down a 7% grade for miles and miles without touching the brakes at all.

Admittedly, I am also comfortable with speed but even if someone isn’t they don’t need to drag the brakes all the way down a hill.

Just another long, disproven, urban myth from decades gone by.


In fact, pumping your brakes (repeatedly applying and releasing them) is generally less effective and potentially more dangerous for managing heat than proper technique.

The physics of braking is essentially the conversion of kinetic energy (motion) into thermal energy (heat) through friction. To slow a vehicle by a certain amount, a specific amount of heat must be generated. Pumping the brakes doesn't change the amount of heat required; it just changes the timing of when that heat is generated.

Why Pumping Isn't Better for Temperature

• Reduced Cooling Time: While it seems like the "off" phase of pumping allows the brakes to cool, the intervals are usually too short for significant heat dissipation. High-performance braking systems require consistent airflow over time to shed degrees.
  
• Peak Heat Spikes: Pumping often leads to more aggressive stabs at the pedal to maintain control, creating "flash" temperatures that are higher than the steady heat generated by constant, light pressure.
  

Hey atlas, I'm pretty certain we've had this discussion before--- no pumping going on by me.
How hard i brake, for how long, and how often, depends on every specific situation, but it's not pumping.
See cyccos explanation. That's what I generally do.
I'm also pretty comfortable with quite hard front brake applications, going back to when I raced motorcycles on paved circuits.

You are misunderstanding what I said. I do not advocate pumping brakes in a car on a downhill. I would not do that nor should anyone else. A car has engine compression to run against on a downhill and that is far more efficient way to slow a car without using the brakes than dragging the brakes all the way down a hill.

I do, however, advocate “pulse braking” on a bicycle. A bicycle does not have engine compression and relies almost entirely on the brakes to slow the bicycle. There is some wind resistance at higher speeds but the brakes do the vast majority of the work. Dragging brakes on a downhill on a bicycle will lead to far more heating of the rims or rotors than a car because the heat goes into the tire and rim or the rotors and calipers which are pretty good heat sinks but poor heat exchangers. “Pulsing” the brakes on a long downhill allows for the heat that has accumulated to radiate away from the braking surfaces without adding heat that steady application would.

Why Pumping Isn't Better for Temperature

• Reduced Cooling Time: While it seems like the "off" phase of pumping allows the brakes to cool, the intervals are usually too short for significant heat dissipation. High-performance braking systems require consistent airflow over time to shed degrees.
  
• Peak Heat Spikes: Pumping often leads to more aggressive stabs at the pedal to maintain control, creating "flash" temperatures that are higher than the steady heat generated by constant, light pressure.
  

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This might be true for cars but not for bikes. Bicycles have a much lower tech/performance braking system. A bicycle also has less heat to build up and less to dissipate than a car by at least an order of magnitude. We don’t go as fast as them nor have a much mass to stop.

Additionally, unless the car (or bicycle) is stopped, air is always flowing over the brakes. Even if you pump the brakes in a car…again, not something I would advocate…the car isn’t stopped so the air flows constantly over the brakes surface.

thanks cycco

and then we get into just what one person thinks is "pumping"
what I do is brake strongly, and then the bike go a bit before braking again-- and this is the part that is variable-- how long and hard I brake for, and how long between braking applications (5 seconds, 10 seconds?) completely depends on the hill, the road surface and all the other variables going on (line of sight, traffic volume, road space available, side roads etc etc etc)

"letting the bike go" and at what speeds is again totally dependant on the individual and their take on things, what they think is dangerous or comfortable.
I totally trust my judgement on this and ride within myself and my bikes ability to slow down appropriately for the given conditions and situation.

again, also from all my motorcycle experience, I know that the front brake does a lot of the stopping, so I am not shy of braking hard with the front.
Most bicycle riders I know are afraid of doing this, they think they will flip over, or lock the front, or whatever, and so do the whole "drag the hell" outta the rear brake.

On the racetrack, I have experienced fading brakes (boiling brake fluid) and on touring bikes have incorrectly braked (dragging brakes for too long) and started melting rim brake pads, with scary reduction of braking ability (in my case, in the Pyrenees mountains 35 odd years ago)
You can feel how hand pressure has to increase to slow down when you start to overheat rims, pads -- or disks for that matter, so if attentive , you make the good judgement and back off a bit, or slow down or stop and lets things cool a bit, its not that complicated.

Any braking system does not suddenly get worse out of the blue, you can feel it coming on, and adjust accordingly.