I am aware how Brooks form my saddle however i am also aware that they tell my to keep the saddle dry (that means don't wet it).

As for proof that water and leather don't mix well, just see what happens if you get a pair of leather shoes wet! If they aren't treated properly and protected they will eventually rot. Common knowledge!
Bit like asking me for proof that the earth is round! Or that gravity exists!

I can only think that you don't have a Brooks or if you do it won't last long!

All good points, especially the leather shoe comment.

I have seven at the moment and the oldest is thirty years old.

The reason they tell you to keep the saddle dry is that to ride it when wet will mean that the saddle leather becomes stretched.

Again I repeat. You do know that this is the method used by Brooks to shape the saddle, don't you?

I also think, going by the amount of intelligence you have shown in your posts, that asking you for proof that the earth is round would prove a fruitless exercise.

Now, now, gentlemen. Easy does it.

Pugboy is being prudent about caring for his saddle. Nothing wrong headed there. Onbike1939 is merely making the point that we sometimes fuss about it too much.

The Earth is actually slightly pear shaped, like me.

Yes it would be a fruitless exercise because it too, is common knowledge! I suggest that if you know so much more than Brooks or anyone else for that matter, you should start a company making far superior saddles (even if they are a bit wet).

I would like to carry on this pointless discussion about leather saddles and the fact that they should be soaked etc, but there is an old saying. Never argue with an idiot as they drag you down to there level and beat you with there stupidity. I feel that's what you are trying your best to do!

Kind regards. Marc.

Holy donkey punch!

Would y'all SHUT UP?!

This WAS a fun and informative thread, but the childish sniping and bickering has turned it rather sour.

Hey MMACH, how's the butt feeling?

I bought a new Brooks B17 in London just before PBP last August. I broke it in going to Paris and in the rain (lotsa rain!) during PBP unprotected, and on tour afterwards, and a little bit since getting back to Australia. To be frank, I think the rain helped give the saddle some elasticity that helped break it in a little faster than it would have otherwise. I do, however, run fenders.

I thought I should start getting in a bit of riding after a very lazy December and early-to-mid-January with almost no cycling at all, and this past weekend did an imperial century on the FG. I thought I would be in for a rough time, butt-wise, because I hadn't worn padded cycling shorts since PBP and had been relatively inactive. Well, today, my legs are a bit sunburned and weary, but my butt is in A-1 knick!!! I can't believe it...

Another anecdote to sort of support both sides of the kids in the corner. I bid on and won for AUD$18 an old Brooks saddle on eBay. The picture had been very, very carefully angled to portray the saddle in reasonable condition. When asked directly, the seller said it was in fair condition. When I received it... well, it was a write-off. The leather had split away from 50% of the rivets, it was dry and the surface was crumbling, and there was a substantial malformation on one side where it had obviously been stored with something against it or under it. About the only salvagable thing was the Brook tinplate badge off the back; the frame was corroded but usable. I had thought about getting some hide and doing what onbike had indicated with wet-forming the leather, so I could rebuild the thing... but it's all too difficult because first of all I'd have to make up a former. At least it was only AUD$18 down the gurgler. It has sworn me off buying old Brooks saddles on eBay, however.

Another little thing about Brooks. As I understand it, the top surface of the leather is lacquered. Apart from the dye used in the tanning process, it is the lacquer that gives it the depth of colour and the shininess. If you apply adhesive tape to the surface, leave it for 24 hours then peel it off, the lacquer will come off too, leaving a matt area. I did this accidentally to the new saddle when packing it and unpacking for the Europe trip. So effectively, whoever said it's the Proofide underneath that does the trick in helping waterproof and soften, seems to be spot on. Application of Proofide on top really is only a surface polish with a tiny amount of the waxes/oils absorbed until that lacquer has worn off. When the lacquer does wear off, you will know -- the Brooks Pro I sold to my old riding partner had this happen, and it went a much darker colour than brown, and lost its surface sheen. I think it is then, after the lacquer wears off, that the saddle becomes somewhat more susceptible to problems associated with water soakage.

So I think each side in the little spat can lay claim to winning -- an indication of how I respect each of your opinions. Now, here's your sweets/candies. Be good boys and go play with each other... after all it's the Touring Forum

Yup...

When I rode across n. Australia for about 6 weeks my Brooks was NOT well broken in. It is really comfortable, but still quite hard. It just has all the right curves/depressions in all the right places....

However, with a real sweaty butt, the B17 soon got broken in well. Dripping wet - no the saddle was not! Damp - yes it was from continuously every riding day for the 6 weeks I spent in Queensland and NT.

Did I treat the saddle while driving it? No way!! I just had too much stuff to carry. All I did when it rained several evenings was put a plastic bag over it. Otherwise it was just continual application of sweat - and the occasional fart :-)

Enjoy your riding. Forget the "I am right - YOU are wrong" approach. If frustrated, then go out for a ride and break in another Brooks :-)

Rowan:
You are right. The surface of Brooks saddles are laquered, or something very close to it. It is an age old method of coating and preserving a finished look on leather. Again, the Romans (when using leather cuirass breastplate types) the and Chinese/Korean/Japanese used to laquer their armor and shields.

I'm don't think lacquer comes into it myself. The leather is rolled with what is to be the top-side against a pressurised plate. This gives the shiny appearance. I understand it is a common practice when preparing leather butts.

Hmmm... could be. I wonder, though. There does seem to be something on the surface that wears off and I don't think it's the top membranes - at least not initially. I know about the plate rolling which closes the surface to better accept a final finish or polish.

Another myth may be in the offing...

All you 'gotta do to know is cut a small square of terry toweling, about a 1.5" square ought to do it. Get some mink oil on one side of it and lay it on the saddle (better yet, get some benefit out of it and use two squares, placing each where an ischial tuberosity contacts the saddle).

After less than a day, you'll get what you'd get if you left a potato chip on a brown paper bag.

This info is direct from Brooks:

How to treat a BROOKS saddle
Each new Brooks saddle comes with a care leaflet. Adopting the instructions contained therein will ensure that the saddle forms correctly and prolongs its life. Most importantly the saddle should not be allowed to get wet. Apply plenty of Proofide to its underside to ensure that any water thrown up from the wheels does not penetrate through to the leather. Always use a rain cover when necessary and for a full answer, to this often asked question, please download the pdf guide in the section headed Leather and Maintenance and then Caring For Your Brooks.

Breaking-in a BROOKS saddle
There are many facts and fables on the internet as to how best treat a leather saddle but the concise answer is that the leather should never become soft, more so it should form to your anatomy. Trying to accelerate the breaking in period with use of substitute oils and waxes will cause the leather to soften and essentially become a hammock. Whilst some argue this is comfortable, they have missed the philosophy behind the use of leather. A leather saddle forms to your anatomy and any pressure peaks force the leather to adapt its shape to a point whereby pressure peaks are evened out by equal distribution of pressure - essentially the bed of nails technique. Dependant upon how toned a riders posterior is, a broken-in saddle may look deformed, but the rider will assure you that its comfort is unsurpassed. The leather however will still be firm. It will have just adapted to the riders anatomy -the perfectly broken-in saddle.
Remember: a broken-in Brooks saddle is the only saddle that will be exactly formed to your body, with an incomparable customized comfort. Therefore you cannot assume that someone else’s broken-in saddle is comfortable for you.

The use of Proofide
Proofide is the only substance Brooks recommends for use with leather saddles. Its unique formula not only conditions and waterproofs the leather but it also allows the leather to breathe. It should be applied liberally to the underside and not wiped off, and a thin layer should be applied to the upper side of the saddle, when you feel the leather requires conditioning. Proofide is mainly to waterproof and condition the leather, not to soften it.

The use of substitute oils or waxes
Substitute oils are not recommended by Brooks as they may damage the fibres by over-saturating them, thus weakening the hide. Waxes may also be harmful as they may prevent the leather from breathing.

Tensioning a BROOKS saddle
There is no exact science behind tensioning a Brooks saddle as everyone’s shape, riding position and weight are different. The last thing you want however is a hammock. When you feel that the leather is bowing, it’s time to tension but only by 90° at a time. Never allow the leather to have bowed so much that it is touching the frame, as this will cause stress to the frame and may cause it to break.
Full instructions on how to maintain a Brooks saddle is available as a pdf download on the section Leather and Maintenance, then Caring for your Brooks.

I've also E-mailed them to find out what their manufacturing process is...I doubt they'll tell me if it's somesort of secret process, so I'll see what happens.

In general I haven't found riding the bike in the rain with fenders gets the seat wet, it is leaving it out in conditions of rain or heavy condensation. I use a bag over the seat just to be careful, and since I have rain pant on anyway, I don't miss the lack of exposed leather.

The Brooks sumary above is all you need to know. If you are comfortable working with leather, you will know those products that can be substituted for proofhide should you wish to, or need to. There is nothing new or unusual about the characteristics described, it's just their way of hedging against people substituting materials that would wreck the seat. Mechanical pressure can be used to break in the seat, by other means than the application of one's butt, but you need to be comfortable doing it.

All of the sellers of conditioners will, of course, hawk their own wares, e.g.,

Leather Conditioning Explained: https://www.properautocare.com/leclcoex.html

A candid interview with Dr. Don Jenkins and Phil Meyers from Summit Industries

Proper Leather Conditioning

Q. What is leather conditioning?
A. Conditioning replaces the natural tanning oils evaporating out of the hide. The smell of leather comes from these oils. If not replaced, leather will eventually dry out, become brittle and crack. Think of these tanning oils as microscopic, lubricating oils. If you look at leather under a microscope, the fibers look like a pile of rope that's all tangled up. Tanning oils coat these fibers allowing them to bend, move and slip across one another. These oils keep the leather soft and supple. Without lubrication, leather fibers will become stiff and brittle. When repeatedly flexed, stiff, dry fibers will simply break and the leather will develop cracks.

Q. That sounds simple enough. So what makes a good tanning oil or lubricant for conditioning leather?
A. All cow hides are naturally oily. Unfortunately, these natural oils are stripped away in the tanning process (Tanning is the process that renders the hide invulnerable to decay.) and some equivalent oils must be re-introduced after tanning. This last tanning step, the replacement of oils, is called "fatliquoring." Over the centuries, a number of oils have been found that have a natural affinity for leather fibers. Every leather tanner has his own, unique, blend of tanning oils. These formulas are closely held secrets, passed down through the generations. This is one reason why one company's leather can have a totally different feel, fragrance, texture and softness from another company's product. Tanning oils can contain a variety of oils including Neatsfoot oil, Sperm Whale Oil, pressed lard and Lanolin.

Q. I've heard the term Neatsfoot oil. What is it? Where does it come from?
A. Neat is an archaic name for hooved animals (i.e. cows, pigs, sheep). Neatsfoot oil is oil rendered from the feet of cattle or hooved animals. In the slaughterhouse, the feet would be cut off the animal, split, put into a large vat and boiled. The oils that rose to the top would be skimmed off and sold as "Neatsfoot Oil." Today, thanks to the US military, there is no actual Neatsfoot oil in Neatsfoot Oil! Let me explain. Back in the 1930's the US Army wrote a Military Specification (Mil Spec) that defined the properties of Neatsfoot Oil. Oil merchants bidding for government contracts quickly discovered other, less expensive, oils would meet this Mil Spec. Today, Neatsfoot Oil is any oil, regardless of where it comes from, that meets this US Government Mil Spec. Neatsfoot Oil now is mostly derived from pigs. Lard is pressed and the resulting liquid, which can be supplemented with mineral oil and/or reclaimed motor oil, is sold as "Neatsfoot Oil". Neatsfoot oil is widely used in the equestrian industry (saddles and tack) but has no advantage in conditioning the finished leathers found in automobiles.

Q. You make both Lexol Leather Conditioner and Lexol NF Neatsfoot Oil. Which should I use ...



I can recommend this from personal experience:

Mink oil
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mink oil is made from the thick fatty layer minks have just under their skins. This fat is removed from the pelt when the mink is skinned and is then rendered into mink oil. Mink oil is a source of palmitoleic acid which possesses physical properties similar to human sebum, therefore mink oil is used in several medical and cosmetic products. Mink oil is also favored for treating and preserving leather.

Botanical alternatives to mink oil as a source of palmitoleic acid include macadamia nut oil (Macadamia integrifolia) and Sea Buckthorn oil (Hippophae rhamnoides), both of which contain a larger percentage of palmitoleic acid (22 and 40% respectively) than does mink oil (17%).

////

Just a word of warning for those who might use mink oil: I don't know about other brands but Kiwi brand mink oil also contains silicone. From what I have heard here on BF and from the guys at the leather store, this chemical is not something you want to put on leather.

Just read the lable of any product you use.

And Rowan, the tush is feeling fine. The saddle has slightly more flex overall than when I first installed it, but still crazy firm. Visually, there is not much difference, but I can feel a bit more give under my left butt cheek. I guess I put more pressure there. It's not uncomfortable. Just something I noticed.

When I talked to cycling students about saddles and used my Brooks B17 as an example, I always explained that the Brooks had its own built-in suspension.

While the surface is hard, the flex in it, as the wings flare out, can be demonstrated by pressing down on the centre part of the leather. I said that was something other saddles generally couldn't do because once that foam (or silicon or whatever) compressed to the plastic former underneath, that was it -- no more suspension give left.

The amount of pressure we can apply with our hands or fingers also is miniscule compared with the weights of our bodies on that particular surface area. It really doesn't take long to demonstrate why Brooks saddles work so well.

But the same press-down method can show a crook Brooks with leather that has softened too much. I have one like that which I recovered from a really old, discarded bike, and the wings flare out far too easily... that's when lacing comes to the fore.

Foam/gel saddles also have a terrible habit of wearing out where the material collapses and sometimes it's almost impossible to find the same model for a replacement, or something similar. With Brooks, there are no problems because the wearing out takes such a long time and there are always replacements.

Yeah... I'm a Brooks fan, although I do ride to work on an ordinary saddle recovered from a dump bike.

Sooooo, MMACH 5 your impressions if you still have the B17...

Sorry, I just noticed this.

The B17 is on one of my bikes, but my main ride now has the B17 Imperial. I was fortunate enough to get in on the testing and have to say, I have been to the mountain top, I have looked down and I have seen the light.

It is one of the most comfortable things I've ever put under my butt.

I haven't done it yet, but I am giving serious consideration to adding a cut-out and laces to my original B17.

[QUOTE=Rowan;6075946]
Foam/gel saddles also have a terrible habit of wearing out where the material collapses and sometimes it's almost impossible to find the same model for a replacement, or something similar. With Brooks, there are no problems because the wearing out takes such a long time and there are always replacements.

[QUOTE]

This situation turned into a huge problem for me. Some years ago I had a Advocet (can't remember the model) that I loved so when I had an accident that destroyed the saddle I bought another only to find that it had been remodeled and I hated it. Thus started a 18 year search that involved over a dozen saddles trying to find one that was comfy. I found an ok one from Selle Italia that had a cut out but still didn't like it like the old Advocet; then the padding began to flatten out and I decided to give Brooks a try since I could have bought 3 or 4 Brooks for cost of all the saddles I tried!

So in the mail came a Swift TI about 6 years ago and I-and my butt, have been happy ever since. I liked the Swift so much I bought the B17 TI when I had my touring bike built, and it's sweet. Yeah their heavier then a standard saddle so if your a weight weenie forget it; but if your butt is a weenie then get one.

In addition to the reasons that Rowan mentioned for comfort; leather breaks into your butt just as a pair of shoes do, not forcing your butt to try to break into the saddle, in otherwords it molds to your butt.

HA

Ive got a pro with around 400 miles on it and its still pretty hard. I think that im 6'0" 145 has something to do with it. I think its slowly coming around... though, it's a little tough in the gooch area still...

Could it also be that your hiny conforms to the brooks? Just a thought. Stop riding for a month or two then hop back on that thing. Talk about a ass hatchet.

Question for the Brooks experts: what is it exactly about each model that makes some more suitable for bars lower than seat position (what some people call "agressive") than other models? By looking at the varies saddles, I see the differences in overall width in the rear of the saddle, but don't really recognize any differences on top towards the front of the saddle where, different, uh..., accommodations are needed when in a more leaned over position.

So...what is it about the swallow and swift that makes them better for a more leaned over position? I ask because if it's just something that one can get by "butchering" a b17 or b17n or a pro, then i'll buy one of those and give the extra money i'd have spent on a swift or swallow to charity (or my local bartender). If it's something that is intrinsic to the design that I'm just not seeing, then I'll buy the more expensive models.

I wish I had side by side photos of all the models on the same seat post to see their comparative profiles from the side...

(FYI, 6'0", 160 lbs, 40 yrs, and my bars are about 2" below seat level)

The Swift and the Swallow both are designed for the racing position.

Yes, we know that. But the question is what about their design makes them more suitable for the racing position? Can one take a cheaper model like the B17, B17n or Pro and modify them to be just as suitable for the "racing position"?

To put it another way: We've all seen the pictures of people who butcher their B17 or Pro to look like a swift or swallow, but do these butchered saddles also "feel" like a swift or swallow or are they still only suitable for a more upright riding position?

No, the butchered jobs won't work as well. The Swift and the Swallow are narrower all the way to the rear of the saddle for higher cadences and higher seat angle; whereas the B17 has a shorter nose with a wider rear for more upright riding position and for more comfort.

I have the Swift (and the B17 on the touring bike), not the Swallow, the Swallow is the narrowest of the two and is for racing whereas the Swift is sort of inbetween the B17 and the Swallow designed for fast riding with comfort.

That's the best I can do for explaination, go to Brooks website and check it out for yourself to make sure.