Wrestlefox

According to the site that qpsblake posted, only a select few will allow it.

SweetLou

I agree, I would not trespass. I do think people have different meanings of stealth camping. But I do not know why this is. To me, stealth camping means what it sounds like it means, that I want to be hidden. Why a person doesn't want to be seen can vary. For me, it's not because I am doing something wrong and don't want to be caught, but because I don't want to be hassled, my camp found while sleeping or hiking. For some reason, people like to steal and damage others' property for no reason that I can think of.

Stealth camping is just camping so that you are hidden, the reasons to stealth camp can vary. Some do it so they are not hassled, some do it because they are trespassing and don't want to be found. But to say stealth camping is trespassing is like saying cycling is trespassing, because some people cycle in areas where it is not allowed.

gpsblake

Truck stops would be a good suggestion for a shower.

As for asking for permission to camp, if you go that route, you'll get a much better positive response by asking people who are already outside then knocking at random doors.

staehpj1

Different strokes... To me in the places that I have stayed, being hassled is a remote possibility. With extremely few exceptions, meeting folks on tour was a positive experience. I tend to go out of my way to meet more people rather than to try to hide in the woods to avoid them. That is a big part of what touring is about for me.

It has always been easy to stay somewhere with permission. Given that, it doesn't makes sense to me to stay without permission.

To me wild camping in someplace that it is allowed (think national forest or BLM land where dispersed camping is allowed) is not stealth camping even if keeping a low profile. I definitely prefer to avoid camping on private property without permission and this seems to be what most folks seem to consider stealth camping.

I would ask myself, "would the landowner consider this trespassing?" If the answer is yes, then I think that you should consider it trespassing too.

SweetLou

That is fine, people tour for different reasons. Some like to meet people, some like the scenery, some just like the ride, some like the solitude. If you don't like stealth camping, that is fine. But don't say it is illegal, because it is not. Trespassing is illegal.

If land owner doesn't want people on his unimproved land, it is his right to not allow them. But it is his duty to post or to tell you that you are not allowed, otherwise you are.
An example, New York's law is:
The law states you are allowed on this unimproved land. It is the owners responsibility to deny you access, otherwise he is stating you are allowed on his land. Where you might think the owner thinks it is trespassing, I think the owner knows the laws and is allowing such actions. I see signs all over rural Kentucky, stating "No Trespassing" or "No Hunting". This is because the owners know the laws and do not wish you to be on their land.

phidauex

The interstate sleeping issue seems to have been mostly covered, from a legal perspective, but I wanted to just throw this out there:

Interstate shoulders are incredibly dangerous places. A good friend of mine was recently killed while walking to an onramp from his disabled vehicle. If you watch any length of interstate for a while, you'll see a veritable parade of vehicles hurtling onto the shoulder, either getting pulled over, slipping on ice, blowing tires, smoking their engines, peeing irresponsibly, yelling at their brats, or something. If you sleep anywhere near the edge of an interstate, you will die.

-Sam

staehpj1

Just for the record, I don't believe I ever said stealth camping was illegal. I suspect that at least some people ARE trespassing and calling it stealth camping though.

I think that if you assume that it is OK to camp anywhere that is unfenced and unposted you are likely to be breaking the law in some places. It would be hard to be sure whether you were within the law to stealth camp in any given place on a cross country tour. First you would have to know the laws for each specific state that you were in. Then you would have to know whether there were county, township, or other ordinances in effect. I seriously doubt that the majority of stealth campers know what the law is in every place they choose to camp. I don't know even the relevant state laws let alone the local ones, but I bet you could find yourself in jail for trespassing on unfenced, unposted property in some states and other smaller jurisdictions.

Colorado for one "does not require private landowners to post their property with no trespassing signs or fences." This is stated on several BLM sites as well as at: https://www.craigdailypress.com/news/...know_laws_and/

Additionally there are probably other states with similar laws and a quick Google search will turn up similar ordinances in smaller jurisdictions.

Personally I might be inclined to just break the law in some circumstances, but since I prefer to get permission anyway it isn't likely to come up unless I find myself in a bind and am forced to stealth camp. It would never be my first choice.

SweetLou

Oh, I didn't mean to say that you did say stealth camping was illegal. That was targeted more to the general forum and to the poster that mentioned stealth camping was illegal. Sorry about that.

Well, you really don't need to know the city, county, etc laws. If the state law says you can do something, a city law can not deny it. I do recommend checking on each state that you will be camping to check the laws about trespassing.

But, you are mistaken about Colorado's law. The owner has to tell you or post saying you can't be on unimproved and unused land.
According to CRC 18-4-201
Probably what that newspaper reporter misunderstood or did not clarify is that is for hunting, you must ask for permission to enter someone's land. This is often the case, states have a special law about trespassing and hunting.

All the states that I know have the same or similar wording about using unimproved and unused land. I have heard that Wisconsin might not allow this, but I have never checked Wisconsin's law.

staehpj1

Several BLM sites specifically say that you can't legally cross private property to access public land in Colorado. They may or may not accurately reflect the law, but you can find lots of statements to that effect on BLM and other sites.

I still think that the legality could be sticky in many locales and also wouldn't push my luck in Colorado.

Bottom line for me...
My measure would still be "Would the land owner consider this trespassing?" If the answer to that is yes, I would consider it bad manners to camp there.

I am not against stealth camping and don't really care what others do as long as they practice the stealth ethic so as to not give tourists a bad name. I do worry that promoting stealth camping is likely to have a negative impact by making every inexperienced camper think that it it THE way to go and that many of them will trespass. I also think that folks are likely to miss out on meeting the local folks and not have as nice of an experience as they could. I think that the number of brand new tourists that seem to all be planning to stealth camp their way across the US would be better off to get permission especially if on a route like the TA.

FWIW: The common perception seems to be that stealth campers need not worry about the legality of staying where ever they stay. Witness the number of journals that reference camping in places that specifically forbid dispersed camping (like the Blue Ridges Parkway) and refer to it as stealth camping.

cyccommute 

If you camp on private property without permission, it is trespassing. How would you feel if someone set up camp in your front yard? If it is on public land, then it is probably okay although there may be regulations in some areas against it. Note also, that I said in most cases...not all. However, if you are camping on property that you aren't sure of and wish to remain hidden so that you don't get caught camping where you shouldn't, you are probably trespassing...and you know it.

By the way, Colorado doesn't require posting any thing to indicate private property.

From the BLM website

According to Colorado State Law, landowner permission is required prior to entering or crossing private property, except while traveling on public roadways. Two sections of the Colorado Revised Statutes (CRS) apply to trespassing:

1) CRS 18-4-504 relates to "Third Degree Trespass", which constitutes either a petty offense, misdemeanor, or felony depending upon the classification of the property involved, and the circumstances of the trespass. This statute requires a Court Appearance. Upon conviction, fines can range from $50 to $750 and can include a sentence in county jail. (private property also does not necessarily have to be posted in order for trespass laws to be enforced)


If you want something even goofier, try the trespass law for rivers in Colorado. The water belongs to the people of the state. The ground under the water can belong to a landowner. You can float the water everywhere but if you touch the bottom of the river...rocks, sandbars, portages, etc....you are trespassing and can be hauled off to jail.


Overall, it's best to know the laws of the area you are touring in and not assume that the laws of your state apply every where.

SweetLou

It is not trespassing, I posted the law above. The Colorado laws says so, if the land is unimproved and unused and not told or posted. If one part of the law says you are allowed in certain circumstances, then anything about asking permission would mean if the land does not meet those requirements. Otherwise the laws would conflict with each other.

Camping in my front yard is not unimproved or unused land, that would be trespassing and I don't need a sign or to tell the person they are not allowed. I would never just go onto someone's land and camp in their corn field, front yard, etc. without their permission. That would be trespassing. But, if I had unimproved land and unused land, then I would not have a problem with people using it. If I did have a problem, I would follow the law and post signs as needed.

Well, if I am not sure if I am allowed to be on the land, I wouldn't go on the land. If I know I can go on the land, then I will still stealth camp. I prefer stealth camping to other forms. I stealth camp in parks that allow camping. It has nothing to do with the legality of me being there. For me, touring is not about the scenery or meeting people. For me it is about the ride and the solitude. If I want to meet someone, I will go to the pub. I think stealth camping is safer both for personal safety and protecting my gear. Don't tell me that I know I am doing something wrong when stealth camping, because I am not. I follow the laws and I stealth camp because it is my choice of camping.

Takara

Landowners are like the posters here: They have a wide range of ideas about what trespassing means and what they're ready to tolerate on their land.

Furthermore, jurisdictions define and enforce trespassing in many different ways.

The bottom line: If you want to camp on unposted land without permission, be confident that you will not be discovered. You are not going to be winning any arguments with the guy who's kicking you awake through your sleeping bag or his buddy the sheriff's deputy.

SweetLou

There's no argument to win. If the owner says "Get Out!", then you have to leave. But the odds of that happening I would guess would be very small. Remember this is unimproved and unused land. It's not like everyday the owners come check out their land that they don't use. Often it is corporations that have bought the land and have not used it. Rarely do people buy land to just sit there, but there are exceptions. Some people buy land for hunting, but these people usually put up "No Trespassing, No Hunting" signs because they want the animals on their land so they can hunt them. They don't want a bunch of trespassers chasing off the animals or other people killing all the animals they want to hunt.

If you are worried about some rogue cop, you could keep a copy of the law to show him, but I have never had this happen.

spinnaker

I don't know how this thread got off topic onto stealth camping. I'll try to get it back on topic but before I do, I will comment on stealth camping. Camping on someone else's property without permission, is wrong, signs or no signs, it does not matter.

Now to get back on topic. I really fail to understand why anyone would want to go on a tour and go from point A to point B as fast as possible. If that is what you want to do then load the bike in the car or on a bus and take the interstate. While I have a little trouble understanding those that feel they need to cover 100+ miles a day on tour, I could understand that much easier than someone wanting to take an interstate for their tour. Touring should be about the journey and not just the destination.

SweetLou

But if camping on someone's property without permission is wrong, then why did all the states say you can? It would have been just as easy to say you can't.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know there was only one way to tour. Just because it isn't how you like to tour, doesn't make it any less valid. There are many reasons to tour as there are ways to tour. Some people like to go slow and take in the scenery, some just want to ride a bike to a location, some just enjoy the ride itself.

I am not much of a scenery person. I am like Chevy Chase in Vacation. When they get to the Grand Canyon, he looks out for a couple of seconds and then ready to go. I see beautiful scenery, but I tire of it very quickly. For me, a tour that is slow with a lot of stops to take in the scenery would be boring. I tour for the ride. I could be just as happy riding on country roads,city streets and freeways. Well, almost as happy, I don't want to stop that much as city riding requires.

But an interstate ride where there are no on ramps or off ramps for miles would be wonderful to me. I could be in a Zen like state enjoying the ride. No need to stop, look for crossing traffic, etc., just riding.

brucewiley

Many areas out west have no alternative to the Interstate to get from one place to another, especially on the desert. Even the RAAM has followed I-10 to Arizona.
I had to ride a section of I-10 around Joshua Tree National Park a few years ago and it was very enjoyable, believe it or not! Wide, clean shoulder with a rumble strip between me and the traffic. Lots of people honking and waving (I don't think it was the one finger wave )

I hear the interstate up here in Idaho isn't quite so nice although it is legal.

spinnaker

Just because the state says you can do something doesn't make it right. It may be legal but that does not make it right. It is someone else's property, you are there without permission then you are in the wrong. It is not up to you to determine the owner's wishes. Only the owner can do that and the only way to know is to ask. I suppose if an owner really does not want someone there then they are going to post but once again there is no way to know the owner's intentions without asking.

Sorry but I will never understand how someone can enjoy riding on a road while cars and trucks are screaming by at 80 MPH, unless they had no other choice, as mentioned above.

Actually I am surprised that this practice is even legal in half of the country.

spinnaker

There are options like warmshowers.org, couchsurfing.org and www.hospitalityclub.org.

Warmshowers seems to be more in tune with the touring crowd but their vetting process is very weak. CouchSurfing.org has an excellent vetting and review process but it is more of the alternative lifestyle crowd in the US but still very nice people. Plus they seem to only be in some of the larger cities. HospitalityClub seems to be big in Europe but I am not sure if it is all that big in the U.S.

You can stay in people's homes or if you don't want to intrude too much then many times people will be happy to have you camp out in their yard.

Fueled by Boh

back to the original topic... do people actually tour on interstates? (exclusively?) i initially thought the OP was messing around/ making a late april fools post ("because the speed limit is higher...").

I remember a thread a while back about someone getting hit and killed on tour while riding at night, and i recently heard a story from a family member about a college friend of theirs who was hit and killed while riding on highway during a bike tour in california. isn't self preservation an instinct we all possess?

jpmartineau

Being Canadian, my knowledge of Interstates is farily limited. I did, however, drive up the I-95 from Florida to New York, and I would never go on that highway on a bicycle. I guess some Interstates (maybe in the lesser populated states) could be a bit safer, but it's not something I'd be tempted to do.

Wrestlefox

Alright, it's settled. I'm NOT taking the interstate. Would google maps be a decent way to set up a route? What are some other way I could go about setting up my route?

SweetLou

You are correct that it isn't up to me to determine the owner's wishes and that only the owner can do that. The law gives the owner options on how he can let these wishes to be known. Asking is not the only way. One of them is by posting. Since the law says we can have access to these lands, then without the owner telling us, having an agent tell us or by posting, he is giving implied access.

Have you wondered why unimproved and improved land is treated differently? It if is improved land, then the burden of permission is on me. If the land is unimproved, the burden of denial is on the owner. It is kind of hard to get permission of unimproved land, since there is no one to get this permission. There is no house to go up to and knock on the door. This is why permission is implied.
I don't know why you consider this wrong. Do you consider other implied actions wrong? But you do seem to find a lot of things wrong, like the reasons why I tour by bike and how I should tour by bike. As a matter of fact, you think I shouldn't tour by bike but should take a car. I am just glad that the states have determined that it is in the public's best interest to have implied access to unimproved lands.

staehpj1

I have ridden on the Interstate for half a day when it was pretty much the only choice. It wasn't all that bad. It actually seemed safer than most of the roads we traveled that summer, but it wasn't that pleasant as far as the noise and the scenery.

On the "exclusively" part or the question, I can't imagine it.

staehpj1

Either buy the AC maps for the route you want or work out you own using google maps and advice from others who have ridden there. The AC maps are worth it in my book unless you want to improvise the route as you go.

cyccommute 

I agree. They aren't perfect...they go out of their way to avoid cities of any size...but they have a wealth of information.