grinningfool

Perhaps the 32 spoke wheels limit it's use as a fully loaded tourer, but I think that it would make a great commuter right out of the box. I would definitely be interested in one for that. I really like the look, and the fact that it comes standard with rack, fenders and pump, as well as a Brooks saddle, appeals to me. All it needs for commuting duty is lights.

tacomee

True enough. And save those nickels and dimes by not driving to work and have your LBS build you a great touring wheelset.

staehpj1

I do not believe that is true. The bikes I mentioned weighing (granted they were not LHTs) were in full touring trim including racks (front and rear), fenders, pump, and even a few tools and an extra inner tube. Since I am not a fan of Brooks saddles my bikes do not have one, but the tools and inner tube balance it out.

I admit that my opinion is colored my lack of enthusiasm for the Brooks saddle, the WTB Dirt Drops, and the fancy Brooks bar tape. I really don't care for any of those three items. I like the saddle on the LHT better, don't like Dirt Drops, and like cheap Nashbar cork tape just fine.

I have to think that if this bike didn't have those three items, few would even mention this bike as a likely choice for touring and I consider the saddle, bars, and bar tape to be a poor reason to pick a bike especially one that is pretty flawed in other ways.

tacomee

Believe whatever you like....but let my add this. Weight is a really stupid thing in bicycles. I've seen people spend hunderds and hunderds of dollars for a *lighter* bike than they currently ride. I've seen people swear their bike weighs less than 20 lbs..when I know the thing weighs at least 24. I've seen and heard so many dumb things about bike weight...

What would 2 pounds mean to loaded touring bike? And what reason could you come up with that would make the Sojourn 2 pounds heavier than a LHT? One pound maybe?

It's OK to lack enthusiasm for the WTB dirt drops, Brooks saddle, bar tape. Bikes are a highly personal thing. But set a Sojourn next to LHT and then test ride them--- the LHT comes arcross as cheap. I work in the industry and believe me, the Raleigh Sojourn and the new Clubman (a light touring/sport bike, are causing the competition to lose sleep. These are classly bikes!

chipcom 

When it comes to a touring bike, weight isn't so silly. One can only carry so much and 7 pounds of bike is 7 pounds less of other things that you might want along. It's really quite simple. Being in the 'industry' can you tell me how much more gear I can carry on the Sojourn versus an LHT, or even my Fuji, to justify the extra weight of the bike? What is it about the Sojourn that would make me happier to lug an extra 7 pounds through the Rockies?

As far as the LHT being cheap...the frame is top-notch, much better than that of the Sojourn. The components are only 'cheap' on the complete bike, if you build it to your own specs it will only be as cheap as you are.

I don't care if you work 'in the industry'...from the perspective of someone who actually tours and commutes, the Sojourn is just another bike that attempts to meet a certain price point with a lot of bling, but isn't really suitable off-the-shelf as a serious loaded touring bike (few off-the-shelf bikes are, in all fairness...but the Sojourn is hardly the class of the bunch).

tacomee

So what makes the Sojourn so heavy? It's a Reynolds 520 frame with a Cro-moly fork. The disc brakes add some weight. Otherwise what's the difference? 7 pounds heavier than LHT?

And almost all stock tig welded steel touring frames (Surly, Fuji, Novara, ect...) are made on Bike Island (Taiwan), out of the same quality tubing, and even by the same frame shop (Maxway). Many touring bikes are generic frames branded to whoever sells them. (Surly doesn't do this, however, but there are several Fuji clones out there)

redxj

That is a tank. My 20 year old 62cm Nishiki with front and rear racks (rear is Surly Nice rack=heavy), full fenders, generator hub/ full lights, and a Brooks weighs just under 32lbs. Good job Raleigh for TRYING to make a touring bike. I don't know what the price is on the Raleigh, but imagine it is around or a bit more than the Surly LHT. With the Surly you get better parts in many places that count (XT 36h hubs, XT rear derailleur, and a real touring triple crank) for the price that is tour ready just add racks and/or fenders. I think it is good that Surly cheaped out on a few areas (seat, saddle, bars, stem, etc.) since they can keep the cost down and figure most people with have a preferred cockpit of their own they want to put on the complete.

I have a friend that is currently doing a few month long tour to warmer places (now in Texas), and he hasn't had a single problem from his brand new purchased before the trip LHT. Would he have trouble if he bought a Sojourn, yes, at least the wheels for sure. It was his first tour and I know he over packed. His fully loaded bike was close to 100lbs. The 32h wheels of the Raleigh would have not survived.

And earlier in the thread talking about touring with disc brakes. Every disc brake you are going to see on a touring bike with drop bars is going to be cable actuated so there is no need for extra fluid/bleed kit etc. The most I think you would need with touring with disc brakes would be spare pads and a spare rotor or two (or a tool to true one also).

I won't comment about "in the industry".

staehpj1

No need to talk about cheap to me. I rode a Windsor Touring ($599) across the country and plan to tour on it for years to come. I think it is a good enough bike that spending more would not substantially change the touring experience. I've never ridden an LHT, but I will say that the specifications look like how I would have spec'ed a touring bike other than I would have gone for STI.

staehpj1

Interestingly I find the areas where they cheaped out to be good choices.

Nigeyy

I also agree; certainly a saddle is a personal choice. If you don't like a Brooks, I'm not sure you'd want to pay that premium for a Sojourn. If I was marketing a touring bike I'd also want to put on the cheapest but reasonable quality saddle and provide an uncut steerer tube and a cheap stem. Perhaps put on cheap handlebars too.

tacomee

Meanwhile, in the real world, on the bike shop floor.... the Sojourn looks and feels like a quality touring bike. I'm guessing it is. Even adding in the cost new wheelset and 26 tooth chainring, it's really great value.

I've said this before--- all bike companies cheap out somewhere on the build to save money. I'd rate the LHT wheelset as somewhat better than the Sojourn wheelset-- but nether are all that hot. Fuji wheels have been crap, total crap for years. Those come back to the shop messed up even if the riders don't tour. The Novara and C'dale wheelsets are the best out of the box (both use Mavic rims BTW)

What the sojourn does is make a lotl the touring bikes spec'd better next year. It's a $1200 bike with $50 fenders, $50 Brooks bar tape, $40 fancy bars, $150 Brooks saddle, $30 pump, $60 rack and a great powdercoat.

Stock it comes with a set cheap wheels and 30 thooth small chainring-- OK for commuting and genral riding. Upgrade before touring.

It's really that simple.

staehpj1

I agree that it makes sense not to put premium items in original equipment component choices like the saddle and bars. Since they didn't even address the basics like proper gearing and 36 spoke wheels, it seems especially silly to put on an expensive saddle and bar tape.

I would go a step farther and say that I would find the stuff that they did put on the LHT suitable for a multi month tour and I would happily takes off on another TransAmerica with the stock bike.

I don't really fault Raleigh for spec'ing the bike as they did with 32 spoke wheels and road gearing, because they do not market it as a touring bike (which it isn't to my way of thinking). They mention touring nowhere that I have seen in their material on this bike. Could someone tour on it? Sure. Is it designed as a dedicated touring bike? Not in my mind and not in their description of the bike.

BTW: I have no way of knowing if the weights posted for the Sojourn are accurate, but if they are, that is strike three in my mind since based only on the specifications it is already a very doubtful choice. It looks like a bike not particularly suited to touring with a bunch of fancy doodads that some people go ga ga over added. I said it before, but I think "lipstick on a pig" is a good description. The doodads (Brooks saddle, brooks tape, dirt drops, and disk brakes) aren't even appealing to me.

chipcom 

No, if you'd read the thread, I stated that the Sojourn outweighs my Fuji World by 7 lbs, based on weighing the actual bikes.

chipcom 

Remind me not to let you recommend 'quality' bikes to me. Based on the reality of the bike shop floor, the Raleigh Sojourn is an overly heavy 'hybird' bike with a bunch of bling.

staehpj1

+1 and Raleigh doesn't claim it is anything else. It just isn't a touring bike. It is a hybrid for someone who likes that flavor of bling.

Still if someone said they already had a Sojourn and asked if they could tour on it I would say yes with some qualifications. Like most hybrids you can tour on it, but it definitely isn't a touring bike. If it were a touring bike they might mention the word touring somewhere in the ad copy, no?

tacomee

Nothing personal, but I think it's important for any prospective buyer to look and test ride the Sojourn. Ask the shop questions. See for yourself. It's a really nice bike with a good mix of old and new ideas. It's the future of touring, like it or not. I didn't like the idea until a built and rode one. I'm a convert. I'll ride one with panniers and f. rack soon and I'll post about handling and toe/heel clip and low speed.

Jeeze-- I'm getting flack from 2 guys riding bikes with cro-moly frames designed 20 years ago, with less than perfect powdercoats, bikes that came stock with the same gearing as the Sojourn, with wheelsets known to give out. Have I said one bad word about the Fuji or Winsor or other brands using generic (but tested) frames to make low budget touring bikes? No. I happen to like the old Fuji style bikes. They are good value for the money.

The Sojourn is a different animal. But it is a touring bike, make no doubt about that. A lot of people are going to love that bike.

staehpj1

I haven't knocked the Sojourn, except as a dedicated touring bike. It is the perfect bike for someone who wants a hybrid with a rack, discs, a brooks saddle and the other bling that it has. Yes many people will buy it and love it. I do maintain that it is not a dedicated touring bike and Raleigh apparently agrees since it is not billed as one. If it was then I would say it was an example of very poor component choice.

In many ways it isn't my cup of tea, but I am sure many of it's owners will love it. Some will even successfully tour on it.

Dahon.Steve

Agreed.

Bicycling list the Sojourn at 33.75 lbs. and I Googled Surly Long Haul trucker & weight and somone posted their bike with rack and fenders at 32.3 lbs! The difference between both bikes is 1.45 lbs, not alot at all. I suspect you can make the LHT lighter but add an extra water bottle and now they are both the same.

chipcom 

This is getting way too funny...

From someone (me) who HAS taken a Sojourn through it's paces, if the Sojourn is the future of touring, I'm the future of American Idol.

For someone 'in the industry' it seems you are not real knowledgeable...considering you don't know the difference between a Fuji World and a Fuji Touring.

The Sojourn is an overly heavy hybrid bike with a bunch of bling that might appeal to the clueless. Perhaps that is what it is designed to do, based on your clearly biased misrepresentation of it as anything else?

staehpj1

I think that he may have mentioned the Fuji Touring as the same as the Windsor Touring and not your Fuji World.

chipcom 

I quoted exactly what he said.

tacomee

OK. I'll bite. What year is your Fuji World? Is it the 2005 with the Reynolds 853 triangle and the carbon fork? That was such a great bike....Fuji made it for what? 2 years? Had XT and Ultegra parts mostly-- but the small chainring was only a 28.

I'm not impressed...

chipcom 

Incorrect, 48-36-26. What does the the standard of future touring bikes, the Sojourn, sport for a crankset again, since it does seem to impress you?

tacomee

But still has a carbon fork, right?

chipcom 

duh

If you are going to somehow twist this into a carbon fork debate...it handles a front rack just fine, as proven on two loaded tours since I bought the bike. The frame material and carbon fork are also partially why it comes in at a full seven pounds lighter than the Sojourn (with rear rack, fenders, B17, leather bar tape, barcons, pedals, bottle cages (which were not on the Sojourn we weighed), Road Morph, seat bag and handlebar bag mount). So don't even go there.

If you want the Sojourn to be the future of touring bikes, you best take some examples from some older touring bikes, pal...lighten the thing up (dropping the disc brakes and using a better frame material might help) and gear it better. Oh...better frame materials are more expensive? Replacing the disc brakes and replacing the expensive 'aged' B17 with a standard B17 would probably pay for an extra cost of an 853 frame...and get your overall weight down to the 30lb range, which would be about right. Better gearing should be a wash, cost-wise.

As it is now...you cheaped out the frame to pay for the bling...which speaks volumes.