J.C. Koto

I am interested in down sleeping bag (mummy style) use and care, and have a few questions.

Does the bottom side of the bag usually contain less down? Is there a rule of thumb to determine the "comfort rating" given only single numerical "extreme" temperature rating? Is the foot-box usually the main source of comfort concern while using the bag at the low end of its rating? Does long-term compression actually harm the down, or can the loft be restored?

I'd really appreciate replies to even any of these questions

PS I tried to search around here but the search algorithm thinks "down" is too common of a word and was thus dismissed...

arctos

Down loses its loft when stored compressed hard for long periods of time. It is best stored in a large cotton storage sack that allows it to loft completely or stored hung up in a tall closet that is dry. Some loft can be restored by tumbling the down bag in a slightly warm clothes dryer- make sure that there are no sharp edges or snags in the dryer drum.

Designs vary so many bags allow for the down to be shifted to the top or bottom as needed in warmer or colder temperatures. Down under you is mostly useless because it is compressed by body weight. For that reason I use a quilt that has no bottom sheet.

Warmth ratings vary widely and most manufacturers ratings are very optimistic for the average person depending on metabolism, degree of hydration, how tired you are and how much food eaten recently. The usual way to rate bags is by the amount of loft above your body in inches. An average of 2 inches of 800 cubic inch fill down all around you is usually rated at approximately 20F.

A poorly designed footbox can lead to cold feet unless you add heavy socks or down booties.

RalphMalph

Also, note the down rating, which has to do with the quality of down. I believe they compress a certain amount of down, and how much it covers/fills when expanded is the number it gets. So higher is definitely better.

Nothing, and I mean nothing is warmer than down. A good down bag can not be beat. A down bag has the unique ability to keep you cooler when it is hot and warmer when it is cold (not dramatically);

…however, down loses every single bit of its insulation properties when wet, and as above poster mentioned, compression and storage is an issue as well.

With that in mind, I prefer synthetic (especially for touring).

Downs # 1 enemy: Water

The # 1 most pervasive substance known to man: Water (maybe air, not sure)

As far as the bottom side, it varies by bag. North face, I believe, makes a bag with 2 temperature ratings. Just flip the bag over and it’s a warmer bag.

Also, some companies make bags with zero insulation on the bottom, to save weight and space. You just slide your sleeping pad in the slot on the bottom.

They have some awesome synthetics out that are so durable and retain such a high percentage of their insulating properties that a down bag for touring just doesn’t make sense to me.

But I do love me some down.

oldride

The new synthetics are good but down is still better as in lighter and more compressable, for it's warmth rating, than synthetics. Either will work well. Yes down does not insulate as well when wet but there is no reason for it to get wet. I've taken my down bag on many sea kayak trips and backpack trips and it's never gotten wet. Just be careful with it. I use a dry bag.

I've used both types and really prefer down.

Cave

What are you using the bag for? For how long at a time? What are you storing it in while travelling? How important is cost vs. low weight and bulk?

Don't be paranoid about getting down wet - be paranoid about getting any sleeping bag wet. Sure synthetic is easier to dry, but that won't help you much in the middle of the night.

Many down bags don't have baffles between the top and the bottom, so you can shift the down around a bit. Varies between brands and models.

mrpincher

As previously stated, the wetness issue is a red herring. First, IF you're going through the trouble of hauling a tent on tour - for gosh sakes, bring one that doesn't leak, or drip or pool condensation on your bag. However, if you sleep under a tarp out in the open, or in a bivy bag, or just prefer tents that drip or pool condensation on your sleeping bag, then one may want to consider a sleeping bags' ability to absorb very small amounts of water and remain warm.???

I used to haul a synthetic sleeping bag and to compensate for its mass and weight, I settled on a Gertex wonder/waterproof bivy bag for short tours in summer weather. That was my preference until I spent one night sloshing around in a water filled bivy bag in a water logged sleeping bag. I decided the synthetic vs down/comfort/wetness issue was a silly discussion.

northboundtrain

I've done quite a bit of camping in all types of conditions/situations, and I would strongly recommend getting a synthetic bag unless:

1) You will be camping in sub-freezing temperatures where maximum warmth is needed and the bag is unlikely to get wet (frost build-up on the exterior surface due to condensation can be brushed off in the morning)

2) You want to absolutely minimize weight. This would be in an ultralight approach where you are counting every ounce, and you're willing to sacrifice some degree of comfort for the weight savings.

Stuff gets wet. Condensation is the main culprit, but you can also accidentally spill something on your bag or get it wet in countless other ways. Two days of constant rain and you can bet that all your stuff will be damp and clammy.

A synthetic bag will still provide some warmth when wet, and will be much more comfortable. Hang it up for 20 minutes in the sun, and it will be dry. As has already been stated, down is useless when wet, and it takes a really long time to dry.

Obviously keeping any bag as dry as possible is key to comfortable camping, so have a dedicated dry-bag stuff sack for your bag. Don't plan on storing the bag and tent in the same dry bag. The tent fly will almost always be wet with condensation in the morning, not to mention if it's raining.

Last year, I did an ultralight-ish three week tour, and I brought my three-season (25-30 deg.) down bag simply because my only other sleeping bag at the moment is a heavy four-season synthetic bag. I had a couple days of fairly constant rain, and after that I was ready to have REI fed-ex me a synthetic bag. And I would have done it had the weather forecast not been favorable for the remainder of the tour.

A good synthetic bag is only a few ounces heavier and slightly bulkier than a comparable down bag. For a long tour, the extra weight and bulk are well worth the benefits in my opinion.

mrpincher

JC Koto,
I'm not sure how the foot box relates to comfort, I'm normally sprawled all over with my feet outside the bag. Personally, I would hesitate purchasing any sleeping bag with more filling on one side vs the other because I normally sleep with the bag unzipped as a blanket. I only zip up on the coldest of nights, while in a fetal position....ha As far as temperature ratings go - I have a 40 degree down bag that weighs just over one pound. It stuffs in the factory sack to less than the size of a 1/2 gallon milk carton, (I would not use a compression stuff sack on my down bags.) I slept in it last night at 24 degrees F. I wore lightweight long underwear(top & bottom) and a very thin pile top and bottom over that, no socks or hat. I zipped up, stayed warm, slept well and will do it again tonight. The tent design kept me dry from the condensate, now it's damp and will dry by tonight. The windchill was 16 but I was in a tent so it didn't matter. This was an overnight outing just to test the bag and clothing combination for my own information. If you don't like sleeping in clothes - a guy obviously needs a bigger bag.

Indeed, my experience is that Synthetic bags retain loft better when damp or moist. In my previous post, I was trying to make a point about what they do when wet. Dampness is a comfort issue to me. I guess I've learned to compensate for the damp feeling of either type of bag with wool underwear, in summer as well as winter. I try to carry three sets of clothing for wet weather - one drying, one on/wearing, one hopefully dry. These are important issues to consider.

J.C. Koto

Wow, thanks a lot for all the great replies!

The reason I asked is because I took a one-nighter and borrowed a friend's 30*F down bag that was left in its compression sack for who knows how long. It seemed to take quite a while of "fluffing" the bag to get the loft back, and despite this, I was still pretty cold that night (it got right to 30*F). My feet really got pretty cold, but I think that since the bag was pretty long, there was too much circulating air space in the foot box. A jacket stuffed down there solved that, plus kept the jacket nice and toasty for when I got up.

I did like the fact that the bag was about the size of a football in its sack, and weighed next to nothing. I am a little dubious about the temperature ratings -- I think I would have been cozy at about 40*F rather than the 30*F the bag was rated for.

I think I'll consider some other options. Thanks again

kayakdiver

Here is something to think about. If you have a tent that doesn't leak..... down is your friend. My tent doesn't leak. If I was backpacking into the back country I will use down or synth depending on the time of year and weather. If for some reason your down bag did get wet while on tour it's not like your 15 miles back up a trail. Your a town away from a dryer. Unless your doing remote touring it doesn't matter. Use what you have. I'm more concerned with bulk on tour and weight for the rating of the bag. On this front the down bag is the winner. My 20 degree bag weighs less than 2 pounds and packs down very small.

As far as cold feet.... leave your socks on. Keep your shoes in the bottom of the bag at night so they are toasty warm in the morning as well.

My 2 Cents.

J.C. Koto

kyakdiver,

I've got a pretty decent tent, and although I've never been out in a torrential downpour, I have been out in some pretty good showers. No leaks! Good point about being near a town, or at least a dryer.

I'm not leaving for an extended trip until May, so I guess I still have time to think about these things. Then again, it was last mid-May when the midwest US rains hit a record amount, and flooded a great deal of Iowa, which I'll be going through...

kayakdiver

you will have a great time! It's an amazing trip. I didn't leave until the 10th of august so I was kinda forced to keep marching because I was worried about the weather towards the end. I got to the east coast on the 10th of Oct. and it was getting hard to find campgrounds still open. The Northern Tier starts about 10 miles from my house. The Anacortes start that is.

Check out my pictures here for a good idea of what you will see along the way. https://cid-e00965f6d68a35b2.skydrive...x/New%20folder
Memories will last a lifetime for sure. You will be amazed at the kindness of others along the way.

northboundtrain

One more thing to consider: Unless you're riding in fairly hot arid conditions, it can be hard to dry your clothes from washing them or if it rains. Often I've found it necessary to sleep with some wet chamiox and a pair of socks or two (the items I'm pretty religious about washing daily) in my bag. Usually by morning they are dry or nearly so. Needless to say, it works better with a synthetic bag.

LeeG

sounds like your friends bag was tired and compressed for too long. When I bummed about 30yrs ago I took a down bag because synthetics were too bulky but waking up in a leaky cheap tent with wet feet wasn't the fault of the down. Thereafter all my bike camping was in relatively warm temps and synthetics got better so my subsequent bags were all synthetic. Recently I bought a sub 2lb down bag before a short tour and was blown away by how cozy it was and the baffling was better than my old bags.
I think I got the 30degree bag.

https://www.montbell.us/products/list.php?cat_id=28

bikebuddha 

I use to swear by down bags for their low size and weight compared to their temperature rating. But quite frankly once too often I was in a situation were I was doing emergency maneuvers to keep the bag dry. So I switched to synthetics, but I still like the feel of down bags better.

NeezyDeezy

People say that when it rains, everything gets wet. In some sense that's true, but I personally have never been in a situation in which I could not protect my down bag. The only tricky part is in setting up the tent while it's POURING. Start with the fly, then the tent, and you should end up with very little water inside.

WeTommyD

I carried my down quilt in a slightly compressed dry bag on my rack. I noticed condensation forming inside the drybag on a few occasions. This mostly occured from putting the dry down quilt in a damp bag.

Camel

If I was about to buy a new bag, I'd buy a down bag with either a waterproof shell, or waterproof breathable shell.

I'd wanted a Stephensons Warmlite for ages, but never could justify the cost.

Seems most manufacturers copy them in some form or another.

see: (FAMILY WARNING-naked people are pictured using warmlite gear on there website)https://www.warmlite.com/bags_In.htm

-My next bag will be a high end one, unless I get a more "normal" 700+ fill one on closeout again for a 1/4 the price. My work around for a "normal" 700+ fill bag was to use a vapor barrier liner, and vapor barrier socks (because the vapor barrier liner wore out over time).