I'm going to be buying some new wheels . . . and I was considering White or Phil hubs. I've downloaded the White hub service manual . . .and it appears rather simple. Have you taken it apart and had problems? I'd like to know so you may save me from buying them

I've used hubs with cup and cones (CC), and with Cartridge. Vintage Campy hubs will last forever . . . and I've never had a problem with the races. Shimano was another story . . .I had some 105 hubs for the early 90's that lasted about a year before pitting badly. . . . and I'm a qualified mechanic who takes care of stuff. Pissed me off to Shimano . My vintage Stumpjumper has Specialized cartdrige bearing hubs . . . and they will last forever. This bike is from 1983. I have multiple sets of cartridge hubs . . . no problems . . . . .needless to say . . .I'm sold on cartridge bearing hubs. Going back to CC would be a big step backwards for me. There's not alot of choices though in 135mm hubs. . . either it's cheap Shimano or $$$ ones. It was so much easier just buying Phil FW hubs . . . but the bike I'm building would do better with a cassette hub because of limited chainring fitting.

For the record those shifters are made by dia compe, and wholesale cost about 28 bucks from the manuf.

Riv did not 'buy the tooling'

Well here it is then, loaded for bear in Hungary. (Bear goes on the front.)

(Turns out there are no bears in Hungary; update from Romania forthcoming.)

Lighter packing job than the California trip, but take my word for it, it doesn't complain at all with a load on the front.

Sorry about the orientation of the pic. Think of it as a neck exercise.

Garth, So far I have only received the one White hub, a front 32 hole that I finally settled on after a year of procrastination for my Rohloff bike. It is beautiful, and the shape will go nicely with the big hub in the back because it has a swollen look like Rohloff, though no larger than the average front hub. It is pretty stunning. I have White Ind cranks and BB for the same bike, and some polished Paul brakes, I think it will look pretty nice, and work really well.

As far as hub rebuilds are concerned, it only takes a 2mm key to get in there, but I think I read while scanning the instructions that one had to press the new bearings in place. If a bearing went bad that does not sound road fixable, while the Phil is now designed to be road fixable, so that was a pretty big screw-up on my part since the whole idea of a Rohloff hub adventure touring deal is ultimate reliability and if anything goes wrong the maximum ease of repair.

Worst things about loose bearings are the mess of getting in there and the cone wrenches. The actual work of a complete replace and grease pack is pretty quick and easy, and the result is a nearly new hub. So I like that about them. Some say the best ultimate billet hub is the DT because it has high end billet (hardened axle) features and is a loose bearings hub.

I have a 40 hole front and back white hub coming, and the price is right, and the Ti arbour sounds like a good way to remove a weak part and do it at lower cost and weight than the Phil. Upside of Phils are the spoke length can be the same front and back (unless one has disc brakes), and the hubs are road fixable. To some degree the White Ind stuff might be better on a closer to home bike like the MTB it is designed for.

Thanks for the reply about the White Hubs . . . it seems there isn't a perfect solution . I've never had a cartridge hub bearing go bad . . and if it did . . . it is still ridable. I just don't trust a cup/cone hub like a Shimano XT as if the races fail . . .you're screwed. I know many people use them, but they're not for me. I don't build my own wheels, not do I like tinkering with them. Once you get a set built by a master wheelbuilder, there's no going back. I'd love to pay $300 less for a set of wheels, but I always think long term. Then again, the price difference is so great I can get two rear wheels built with XT hubs for the price of one with White or Phil. Ouch.

This is my first foray into cassette hubs . . .and I'm not liking what I see really . The Whites will probably do me okay, as I don't need a field serviceable hub. The adjustment with a 2mm wrench seems a little odd though. . . but from what I hear they stand behind their products pretty well.

If you approach this from a more analytical level, it is much easier to grasp.

1) Welding highend steel tubing (lugged or not) is not rocket science.
2) Neither is it a high and incomprehensible art form.
3) Riv provides high end one-stop-shopping for a particular type of customer and cycling activity.
4) For some cyclists, that combination of quality and service is enough, even if at an unnecessarily high price.
5) Very strong brand, like Rolex, which is not the best automatic watch in the world.

Riv offers quality products with a strong brand.

I, on the other hand, enjoy building up my own bikes for specific purposes. The world is full of great frame builders.

Garth, the 2mm wrench goes in from the side, just inside of the dropout, like a spoke. There are three cap head screws that bear on something in there. What this does is allow one to lock the endcap onto the spindle to assemble the hub. I am describing the MI6 hub here. I thought it looked a little flimsy, but one has to keep in mind that the hub has a 15 mm axle in there and commensurate bearings, unlike the Phil road hubs (not sure which comes out better on that). So the screws are well out from the center and would have good purchase.

I assume that this hub should be plug and play and not require roadside care for all but the most heroic enterprises. I reviewed the instructions and one can hammer on new bearings using a pipe or socket to spread the load, so a remote repair would be possible.

In general I have had very little break down on decent quality bikes. I think the LX hubs are pretty bombproof, I just like the upper end candy stuff also. Though my bikes seem reliable, I still like the idea of uber reliability as a goal, though few of us will actually need it. I'm at the lower end of the "I have fallen down and I can't get up" age bracket, so I like the idea of extra reliable stuff

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but here's my two cents:

Riv makes great frames, but like all other limited-production builders they aren't a very good value. While Surly frames might not be built with absolute attention to every detail, does that really matter as far as riding experience goes? No one has been able to convince me that the Atlantis or other gourmet frame is worth the $2K you'll pay for it vs the $400 you'll be for a LHT frame. In practical terms the latter will work just as well as the former, and for about $1500 you can put together a complete LHT with nice, durable components that will take you around the world just as well as a complete Atlantis that will set you back at least $3500

And I know I'll catch lots of s**t for those, but I'll say it anyway... To me paying more than about $2K+ for a complete bike is just an extravagant waste. To me one of the most appealing things about cycling is that it's an efficient, healthy, and inexpensive form of transportation. When you're getting to the point of spending as much for a bike as you would for a decent used car you've completely lost sight of what cycling is all about. $3-4K+ for a bike just seems silly to me.

Agreed. I think Rivendell bikes are beautiful and seem extremely well-made. I also love much of their general philosophy about riding non-race bikes and componetry.

Like Alan said, I just can't see spending more than my honda civic for a bicycle.

I agree with this, with qualification: I dont see any sense spending that much on a bike that is 20 year-old technology, simply because only a few manuf. make nice lugged frames anymore... However, if you're living car free, I can certainly see the draw to new technologies that represent advances in utility such as the Rohloff hub, SON HUB dynamo plus integrated LED lights, hydraulic disk brakes, etc. etc. Thats much easier for me to understand...

Ride one. Then you'll understand.

If we want to discuss "Value" . . . it would take 'till the rest of time!

Isn't it funny the ones who don't spend less on bikes and other goods often think the ones that spend more are being "extravagant" and "wasteful" . . . while those that spend more thing those who spend less are being "cheap" and "tight arsed"

In reality . . . we don't know anything.


Ride what you ride and enjoy the moment

I have a couple of Rivs and I don't feel like I wasted my money, after all it is my money. If I wanted a LHT I would have bought one. My best advice is don't buy a Riv if you think they are over priced. I don't know why people worry how other people spend their money, maybe jealousy I guess. I bet you secretly covet a Riv, why else would you feel compelled to make such a comment.

I whole-heartedly subscribe to the 'keep it simple, smart' philosophy because generally the simpler something is the more reliable and easy to maintain/repair it is (it's usually less-expensive as well). While I can see an argument for mechanical disc brakes b/c they function better in wet weather and are easier on rims, hydraulic discs seem totally unnecessary to me. Straight mechanical discs work very well, why make them so much more complicated by incorporating hydraulics just so you can have better 'modulation' ?

We're just discussing different attitudes/philosophies towards cycling. If you love Riv, and are welling to drop $3K+ for one (or 10 for that matter), it's your money, go for it. However many newbies who read these forums need a balanced perspective or might otherwise erroneously conclude that they have to spend that kind of money to get anything better than a mediocre bike.

And just for arguement's sake... I could afford to drop $3K+ for a bike if I wanted, but again, don't see the point when it's totally unnecessary as far as I can tell. Even if I ever became affluent I would probably never buy a Rolex because spending thousands on an f-in' watch just seems silly to me.

I don't think it's so secret, in fact I'm pretty sure I admited to it.

Although truthfully, I'd just as well take a LHT frame, add a nice looking powdercoat (I'm to hard on paint) and add some of the nicer Rivendell components.

Let you in on a little secret. Grant isn't 'into' components. He sells a lot of mid-grade stuff. Nothing wrong with it at all. But his bread and butter is frames.

I subscribe to Vintage Bike Quarterly. They test a lot of rando bikes. Most good rando frames cost $2K and up. There's a lot of work that goes into getting a bike just
right. Rivendell sweats the details. Having ridden a bunch of cheap frames and a few expensive ones, I can tell you that many of the expensive ones had something special about them. When I first test rode the bike I have now it put a goofy grin on my face.

hydraulic systems are simple and robust. This is why they have been used for decades in cars, motorcycles, heavy machinery, manufacturing, tractors, mining, earthmovers, cranes, planes.....

Its only the cyclists that are afraid of such a well-tested technology! Have you ever had hydraulic disks? in addition to the fact that you only ever have to touch them once every two years for about 15 mins of maintenance, they are stronger, never have to be adjusted, and have two or four piston braking, meaning the pads on both sides move. This is a better design than mechanical disks, where only one side moves and deflects the disk into the other pad... The ONLY downside is the lack of road levers for hydraulics.

but i digress.

see, the funny thing is that its not the overall cost: an 8,000 dollar JP Weigle randoneusse makes much more sense to me (if i had the coin) than a 4,000 dollar Rivendell.

Gunnar/waterford added the 'grand tour' to the lineup earlier this summer:


https://www.gunnarbikes.com/grandtour.php

My wife has a Bleriot, which was one of their sub 1K frames. I'm not positive, but it looks to me like I fall in between sizes on their new sizing. Which would mean custom,
while the money would be painful, last time I asked they had a waiting list a couple of years long. At 58, that's not gonna happen.

But I would love to have one. I like old school. I also like the new steels, and well made frames. Rivendell wraps all that up in a handsome paint job. What's not to love?

I ride a Gunnar, and have tried a couple Waterfords. They are great bikes, a different approach from the one Rivendell takes; but I want a bike I can love, and I pretty much love my Gunnar.

I think the Bleriot was one of the coolest Rivendells made

I like the fact that Riv is offering frames with a range of prices from $1k to $2k now. As the costs of the Toyo built frames went up they found other sources. They have a new Roadeo road frame built by Waterford for $2k which is a good deal for a frame from that factory. Still at the $2k level there are a lot of builders in play in the US and even Italian manufacturers like Cinelli, De Rosa etc.

I've ridden Rivendells for a while so my next bike will be racier that their laid back big tyre clearance geometry.

She loves it. I've just toodled on it a bit. She has those thin Grand Bois tires and they feel like bedroom slippers or something.

Hmm, I apologize for my ignorance. I'll admit I don't know much about hydraulics, I just assumed that the liquid element made them more complex and difficult to work with. I'll do some more research before I write them off completely.