Hello forum

I am new and this is my first forum post. My wife and I are thinking of packing it all in and going on a global tour, first from Florida (where I am) to Alaska. After there, we have a real urge to visit Australia and New Zealand. From there, who knows..

There is a problem.. I guess there always is.

My first concern is that we have a stable income of around $1500 a month to go on. We have retired young, I am 38, she is 39. I'm thinking that is enough to go if we plan on spending some time stealth camping.. which we both absolutely love to do. I'm wondering if anyone had some advice on whether or not that sounds like a good budget for a couple who plan on living a bit frugally? I do want to see the sights, but we aren't the type to want to spend each night in a motel.

The next, and biggest concern I have is I have back trouble. While I am able to deal with 'the stretch' to the handlebars for day trips, I'm pretty sore when I'm done. I would very much like some reccomendations on a bike that is suitable for long distance touring but also provides a more upright position. I don't see myself being able to enjoy the ride if I'm leaned over reaching for the handle bars for days on end. I realize that I'll increase my wind resistance, but that is of little concern to me since we won't be trying to break any land speed records and it'll be all about the scenery, the cultures, and about taking it all in.

So.. I'm looking for a little advice..

I want to go the long distance, but I need to sit upright and comfortable to do it. I don't want to go the recumbent route since it just doesn't suit the 'spirit' of it all to me for some reason. I'm comfortable on a bike, I just want one that leads a little to my needs.

If your bike budget allows it, Thorn touring bike (Raven?) with a Rohloff hub has a fairly upright riding position, and a good range of gears for most touring situations.

I checked it out and it does look like a nice bike. I have no experience with the Rohloff hub, but the design looks very nice and much less on the outside to get tangled up in the brush. They are a bit pricey, but having the pannier racks included (not sure about the quality), is pretty enticing. We are trying not to skimp too much on the bicycles since I'm sure it'll make or break the trip and our overall enjoyment of it. The design does seem to be a bit more upright and I'm guessing that if I looked I could find a handlebar replacement that would make the upright position even a little more attainable. I want to be as close to vertical as I can get if I choose so that I might alleviate any potential problems, before they really become problems. I am looking for a bike that can afford the comfort of a beach cruiser, the potential to climb steep grades, and the durability of a good brand name touring bike. Maybe I'm looking for too much in one package..

I can contribute a couple of points. I work with two brothers. They pedaled across the US together and spent $.80 on food and about $5.00 on coffee for the whole trip. After that, they rode from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego with similar expenditures. And took the Continental Divide trail to get off the roads and make it more interesting. They did stop to work a couple times in South America on that trip. So, uh, not an issue, but you have to be flexible in your habits and expectations at that level.

I have a bad back, too - spinal stenosis and two or three other degenerative issues. You are far better off bent over a traditional road bike than in a more upright position. I can ride with my bars below my saddle a lot better than I can walk. The reason is that when you are upright, your back is in column, and all the jarring travels right up your spine like a pile driver. When you are bent over, your butt goes up and down but all that does is flex your spine a little, which is a good thing. It needs the exercise.

The other good thing about being bent over is that it opens up the sides and back of your vertebrae which relieves the pressure on the discs and nerves. There are very good reasons for the standard road bike position, and wind resistance is not all that great a part of it, really. The modern MTB position is about the same, but MTB bars have way fewer hand positions than drop bars and are tiring on long rides.

In other countries, and out of the way places, 26" parts are much more available than 700c. South of the US border outside of large cities, no one knows what 700c is. And 26" wheels are stronger because they are smaller and have better spoke angles. My wife has a randonee bike with 26" wheels, MTB gearing, road bike bars and shifters, and full touring eyelets and braze-ons. It's pretty neat.

All that said, you may feel that I have it all wrong because it's uncomfortable for you now. But I can pretty much guarantee you that you'll feel very different about it in a few thousand miles. Which you should start accumulating now. Work up to riding 150 miles/week to begin with. Go to the gym. Lift some weights. Squats, seated rows, benches, dumbbell presses, lat pulls, crunches, leg lifts, lunges, all that stuff. Strengthen your core and your upper body. Stretch after.

When you're touring on a really long tour like that, you'll enjoy putting in about 60 miles/day. That's 420 miles/week, loaded. So you'd like to be able to do close to that, unloaded, first. Now, I don't do that. I have many 5000 mile years in my legs and have ridden 400k in the mountains in 18 hours, so I don't get particularly tired at a touring pace. I know I'm good to go. But you should know that about yourselves, too. I find it interesting to see what I'm capable of. I'm 65.

Go over to

www.pathlesspedalled.com

and ask the folks there. They have actual experience of doing what you plan.

I've thought about selling everything and heading out, health insurance is always an issue, particularly if you plan to go abroad.

Thanks Carbonfiberboy.. that's pretty good advice. Perhaps it's just something I'll need to work through on the road. I have been exercising and riding quite often, but I'm not quite hitting 150 miles/week yet. My wife and I are putting on the miles more and more, but we sort of assumed that our strength to tour would develop on the road, not before we left. I do understand the value of conditioning, but I guess I saw myself getting stronger a little more every day we were out there.

I think I'll take the advice and spend the next few days trying to get used to the 'lean' a bit more. I don't know why, but if feels quite unnatural to me.. back ends up sore, neck sore from looking up. Some of it is normal I suppose, but it worries me a bit once we get out there how comfortable I'll be long term. I expect the aches, the tiredness, and general ague that comes from the strenuous exercise.. I just don't want it to end up more than that, or become intolerable. My wife and I do weekend to 4 day trips and I can say that I'm pretty sore afterward. It may have to do with my form, it may have to do with my back, but the reality exists and I worry that if I don't figure out how to reasonably correct the discomfort, it may ruin the experience or end it.

Yes, exactly. My concern, too. You gotta know before you commit. Only one way to find out. You don't want to get 1000 miles down the road and find you made a mistake. You want it all perfect before you go. Everyone says exactly what you are saying about The Position when they are first starting out. It can take years to develop the strength and flexibility to ride long distances, but you don't have years. So you'll have to substitute volume and intensity. But don't forget to rest! When my back gets sore from too much training, I'll take a few days off, maybe just walk a little. Makes all the difference.

You might think about finding a used carbon fiber road bike to train on. It'll be a lot easier on your back while you're getting in shape. Make sure you have a light, modern helmet. You may need to get fitted by a sport physiologist who specializes in bike fit. Bike fit is the most important thing. My wife had sore hands, and I moved her bars 1 cm. Fixed it. Look for a Serotta dealer somewhere within 100 miles. Their fitters are very good, and you don't have to buy a Serotta, just pay for the fit. Of course, you might like a custom Serotta! That would be a trip. Titanium, 26" wheels, full touring, MTB gearing, etc., just like my wife's steel bike, except $$$!

I did my first post without thinking about what you said about your back. Like CFB, I have back probs--5 compression fractures. I had set up a bike to commute on with a VERY upright riding position. I ride about 6 miles each way to/from work. The first time I rode that bike, I almost wiped myself out! Every bump hammered my spine. I decided to switch handlebars to some randonneur bars I had with an adjustable stem, so I could adjust the height. I am still evaluating it, but so far, it seems to be much better.

I said all that to say this: I think CarbonFiberBoy is right about the upright riding position for bad backs. Too much jarring sitting straight up. Much less when leaned over--and you don't have to be in a 'racer' position, just so your back is less vertical.

My touring bike is set up with 26" wheels, a 29er disc fork (to raise the bars a little and relax the steering), Randonneur bars for lots of hand positions, a steer tube extender to raise the bars, and an adjustable stem for height adjustments as necessary. I also use Thudbuster seat posts on a few of my bikes, to reduce the jarring. All this has helped me reduce the fatigue to my back on long rides, and thus my enjoyment of tours in general.

I don't know if Brooks saddles work for you, but I have had good luck with them, and would not tour without mine.

Thanks for the sound advice. I'm quite glad I decided to join the forum. I own a couple bikes now.. one is a Trek 520, the other a cheap beach cruiser. My wife and I run on our cruisers on the flat roads of Florida with gel padded seats at a snail's pace and I have to say it's a pretty comfortable ride. I couldn't imagine running a long distance on it of course, but somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking how comfortable I would be if I could maintain the comfort of the cruiser bike in the durability of a good touring bike.

I guess you've managed to remind me that we are talking about 2 entirely different species.

Although we are in fact going to be touring, I think the both of us have this image of a 'no big hurry to be anywhere' type of adventure. While that sentiment might be a little 'romantic' in ideal, I'm guessing like our weekend trips, it'll be entirely impractical as the headwinds come, the thunderheads rise, and that push at the end of the day to reach a suitable camp site is a reality.

Since I already own the Trek 520, I may just take the advice and have it fitted. I haven't done that before; I have sought the advice of other more experienced cyclists than myself to advise the adjustments. I've had excellent luck with the Trek and wouldn't hesitate to tour it anywhere. Perhaps a better investment overall would be to have the bike fit, parts replaced, and upgrade to some more road worthy panniers.

And yes, I use Brooks saddles myself. I had the opinion that bigger was better when I started cycling, but after changing over to the Brooks saddle, I haven't looked back. Just took a while to 'break-in' I guess, but now it's as good as any old favorite pair of boots.

I broke a vertebrae in a climbing accident, 35 years ago, and the rest has been downhill. I do feel neck pain when I start a tour, but after a few days it is fine. Back doesn't bother me at all when touring. I'm a big believer in road posture, it is like quadruped posture, before we became erect, which is more comfortable, more in our basic structure.

I don't think you need to train to go on a tour. 65 mile days are nothing. I did better than that after about 20 years out of the saddle. The key attitude is to just stay comfortable, and have a healthy attitude to pain. So for instance, don't overdo the first days. Deal with any problems that show up as they show up. Don't let anything get worse make a position adjustment right away if your new cycling shorts are too thick, or if you need to add some peneten to your butt. As far as the pain, I am just referring to healthy hardships, a good attitude will see you through, but modern life is very short tempered about any inconvenience. One hears Steve Jobs prattling on about the experience of this or that gadget, so what do you do when your life experiences 10 days of rain.

The problem with the approach I suggest, is it is too uncertain for selling your house, and quitting your jobs or something. But if you aren't needing to do anything too irreversible before you take off for Alaska, then it would work. Otherwise you need a plan that makes you certain your bodies will hold up, and your interest also. A lot of people enjoy touring but it's like sex. Like it. Don't necessarily want to spend the next 5 years doing nothing but.

My wife and I have been extensively discussing a lot of what you have written... especially the 'travel burn-out'. We both have been reading books for the last couple years about others' adventures as well as a lot of online travel journals. We think the key to making it work is to spend a lot of time 'smelling the roses'. The only real time line we intend to follow is those of weather patterns but we really want to try to not be overly scheduled in the tour. If a place suits the both of us well, then we intend to spend extra time in one place.

We are both avid hikers and spend a lot of time enduring the mosquitos, the deer flies, and the endless tick population here in central Florida to enjoy all that this place has to offer. Since we were both tied down to our jobs, we didn't have a chance to travel much and so a lot of states and national parks will be a first time visit. We are really looking forward to seeing these places.. (yes, we are sort of the tree-hugging type). lol

Seriously though, we are a little afraid that every mountain will be no more thrilling than the last and the new experiences will be less and less eventful when every day is a surprise. I'm guessing that if Christmas came everyday, who would care if it's Christmas.. and your sex analogy is spot on too. And so, we've been seriously taking that into consideration and trying to think ahead before the whole event begins. It's a really legitimate point you've brought up..and one not wasted on us.

As far as selling everything and not looking back.. well, we are lucky that for us it doesn't have to be that way. We managed to pay off our house a few years ago and my son will be caring for it and managing the taxes. Our cars will be parked in the garage and it is our hope that our savings will remain in the bank only getting bigger as we intend to limit our budget to our $1500 a month pension. That is another big concern that we are able to live on that budget. If we can do that, the only end to our adventure will be when we tire of it. If we find it to be not enough and our savings start to suffer, then we'll really need to reconsider how far we intend to go. Of course we have some goals, but we are really trying to leave a lot of our trip unplanned so that we can feel free to experience whatever life throws our way.

Sounds like you have a great outlook on it! If you have not been able to visit many national parks, you are in for a treat. I have had the privledge of visiting a few of the ones in the western US, and am looking forward to doing a LOT of bike touring when I retire (hopefully in about a year). Plan to see a lot more then.

As far as your budget, $1500/mo comes to roughly $50/day! I would think that if you have your gear paid for before you start, that should be plenty for an extended tour.

Depending on when you start, we may be doing the Pacific coast at about the same time. Keep us (the forum) up on your progress, and maybe we'll see each other on the road.

That's ideal and somewhat similar to my own situation. I just ensure that while I have a goal that I don't let outside stuff fence me in. It is perfectly OK to take off for Alaska, then decide you don't want to go after all. That way you are heading out, able to make the day by day decisions, and with luck it goes on for ever. But too many expectations and pressures just lead to doing silly stuff that ends up with someone a little injured or sore and it is then difficult to dig out of that problem. Your first few days should be more spa mentality than trying to beat some record on miles. Listen to your body, do what feels good. Cycling feels good normally, so it all goes together. I find I gain strength rapidly and feel better as time goes on. Why train, unless it is to achieve certain goals. If your goal is continued comfort then it really shouldn't require training.

I read this book about some guy who did the trans am tour. He went with his brother who didn't train, while he did. They were older dudes, I think the author was clergy. Hardly through the first state and they were Splitsville, but pulled back. So compatibility of goals is key if you aren't solo, but other than keeping up with the Jones, being unusually fit isn't a requirement. Any time you get way out of your comfort zone without something having changed the parameters of your comfort zone, you are pushing upstream. Sooner or later that gets unsustainable. Not for nothing that more subtle forms of modern torture rely on putting the onus of the pain on the sufferer since it is harder to bare if self-imposed.

Of course one has to be somewhat capable of cycling if it is way outside ones capabilities that might be a problem. In my case I am endowed with muscular thighs, so it comes naturally, even if I am super unfit, and least there is a basis to build on. If it was a pull-up contest I would need years of training. That said I don't have a knee cap in one leg, after an accident. So I am serious about the idea of just letting the trip be my guide. It would be easy to blow something up otherwise. Another prerequisite for this approach is that initial terrain be mild. If your first day is a pass, you are going to be at or beyond your limit. So Florida to Alaska might work on my system, while Alaska to Florida might not.

I think the variety thing is helped by multiple cultures. One can only ride by so many Cracker Barrels. So heading south, whatever the challenges at least offers a lot of diversity.

If I was your age and free to go, I would sail around the world in a Catamaran...

I agree with this 100%. As someone with a history of back problems, I can say that one of the things that has helped me get the problems reined in is riding in a road bike posture. When my back got really bad I tried the upright posture thing and it aggravated the problem. I actually thought my bicycling days were over and also thought I would never camp again. Dropping the bars was the ticket. I now find that 4-5" below the seat is about right for me.

In addition to being harder on the back a "sit up and beg" position puts your weight on the saddle leading to saddle discomfort.

I suggest starting with the bars as low as you find comfortable and slowly dropping them lower as you log more miles and get acclimated until they are where you ultimately want to wind up. Be sure that you are in a relaxed posture with elbows bent upper body relaxed.

That said back problems are not all alike so YMMV.

On the money issue. I would find $1500 a month plenty without any need for stealth camping. If that is per person it would allow for a fair number of motel rooms and nicer meals. If that is for the two of you and you are frugal it is still doable. Others may spend more though, so you need to answer this for yourself.

FWIW, I don't get the attraction to "stealth". "Free" on the other hand I like. We managed to stay for free a bit more than half the time on the Trans America and for cheap a good bit as well. We didn't need stealth a single time. On other tours I did a bit better or a bit worse at finding free places to stay depending on the location and my mood. I figure that camping for free without a need for stealth is my first choice, camping for cheap my second choice, paying more for a camp site is next, and stealth camping is the last resort.

I didn't read everything, but I can recommend reading https://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html and https://www.sheldonbrown.com/handsup.html

Basically, what I think you should do is put your saddle back a fair amount, but not be cautious not to over-do it as your knees will cause problems while pedaling. I don't think an upright position is very good for your back, unless you have weak muscles that won't strengthen. The way it works is that you'll be using your back muscles as a spring, instead of putting all the weight on your vertebrae. This does hurt at first, and can cause stiffness, but it will eventually go away and you'll simply stop noticing.

If your back muscles won't strengthen you'll have to ride sitting upright, meaning that you'll have to damp shocks as much as possible through sprung saddles, suspension seatposts and lower tyre pressure. You can also get a fully suspended frame but they often make rack installation difficult. (some Moultons come fully suspended and with a built in rack I think, those might be a good option)
You could also use moustache or north road handlebars.

As for the gel saddle, I think you should try some hard saddles, be it plastic or leather (Brooks saddles work very well for me). If they fit and are fitted correctly (ie you sit on your hip bones and don't slide forward putting a lot of pressure on your knees and wrists) you'll find that they are much more comfortable after a while.

$1500/month is more than enough if you stealth camp and cook your own food. I toured europe on 5EUR a day. I can also highly suggest https://couchsurfing.org
Everyone I met through couchsurfing.org has been truly wonderful

You might like to try North Road style handlebars -- IMHO, the hand position on these bars is more natural than straight MTB bars. There are many to choose from, such as the Nitto Albatross or Soma Sparrow.

You may also want a sprung saddle (such as the Brooks B67 or Flyer) or even a suspension seatpost.

I have chronic lower back pain. Sleeping on the ground seems to hurt it; riding my bike doesn't. In fact, I think my riding position on my road bikes with drop bars helps stretch out my back and helps the situation.

A few millimeters here and there can make a big difference in comfort, especially if you're riding for several hours a day, day after day. I'd suggest playing with your setup on the 520, since it's an excellent tourer. You can raise or lower the saddle to get better leverage with your legs and less butt pain. You can slide your saddle forward or backward to change your reach to the bars. You can rotate your handlebars up or down. It might help your back, or not, but it also can make your hands and arms more comfortable on long rides. All of these tweaks are free.

A tweak that may help your hands (and back?) and will only involve new bar wrap is to slide your brakes backwards or forwards. Having the hoods in a good spot can help with hand comfort.

A tweak that costs a little more is to change your stem. You can get more or less stretch, and raise or lower your bars. It only took me two stems to get the one I liked. My first one stretched me out too far and was too low. My second one raised the bars until they're almost level with my saddle, and brought the bars back to a comfortable reach. My bike now "fits me like a glove."

Some people love flat bars and tour on mountain bikes or hybrids. If it works for them, who am I to criticize? I just know I wouldn't want to tour on my mountain bike unless it was off road.

Some people swear by recumbents. I wouldn't know. Maybe someday I'll try a tour with one.

I think you can find a comfortable ride that won't hurt your back. Sleeping on the ground, however, may be an issue. The best lightweight pad I've used is the Big Agnes Insulated Air Core air mattress. I have very little pain in the morning and it's comfortable all night. It only takes me two minutes to blow it up and a relaxed pace and that doesn't bother me at all. I've also heard wonderful things about the "new" NeoAir by Thermarest, but it's too expensive for me to buy just to try. If my Big Agnes ever gives out maybe I'll give one a try.

Have a great tour!

NeoAir works for us. Wonderful. One of the most wonderful things is how small it packs.

Once again I agree 100%. The NeoAir is stupidly expensive, but very comfortable. It is super light weight and packs tiny too! I absolutely love mine.

Here's another pitch. You might consider touring on a tandem. Especially recommended if you are unequal in strength on the bike. Stoker and I have been backpacking together for 35 years. This year, because of my back, we're trying bike touring instead of our usual backpacking expedition. The attachment below shows our bike loaded for a two week bike and dayhike tour through the Redwoods. Honest, that's all we need. Full camping and cooking gear in there. Trail shoes and light pack in there, clothes for both modes as well as passable town clothes. About 30 lbs. in addition to our normal dayride equipment. Going out forever, we'd take front panniers, too, for some more clothing variety.

Advantages: light! One tandem weighs less than two touring bikes. Only one set of racks and panniers. Share the work equally, no question about it. Very much fun being that close all day. We can talk comfortably. Some teams use headsets to aid in that. Fast. We cruise at 18 or so on the flat, loaded, and wife is 61 and never was athletic. Comfortable. Captain sits in the middle of the bike, very cushy, while stoker has a telescoping shock seatpost. Flashy. People love them. Cars give you extra room and wave. Everyone smiles when they see a tandem. Stoker also smiles and waves. Stoker navigates, so captain can pay attention to the road. It's a rolling party.

Disadvantages: Tandems are relationship accelerators. Whichever way yours is going, it'll get there faster on a tandem. That can go in either column. Tandems are expensive, though not necessarily more than two bikes, especially if you add the equipment. If something breaks, you are both stuck there. You can't put a tandem on a bus and they are tricky to fly with. They wear stuff out faster than a single, but not necessarily faster than two singles.

On the subject of touring philosophy . . . I've always found travel to be about people, not places. The tour is the spark for interaction. That's the fun of it, and it's very addictive.

Tout Terrain from Peter White in NH is another excellent touring bike with rough roads in mind..
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/tout-terrain.asp

Co Motion in Oregon will build a bike single or Tandem for your needs too..

Rohloff hubs are excellent , as a touring kit they are really trouble free, a few ml of Oil inside
and the assortment of ball and needlebearings are happy inside.

My 26" wheel bike has a 16t hub cog and a 38, or as it came with a 39 t chainring on it. good range
tandem they spec a 42 chainring with the 16 t cog as minimal

there are 10 reduction gear ratio sets in the hub, 1~7 are double reduction,

for tandem use they ,Rohloff, use a special hubshell with taller flanges to have all the spoke holes further in from the edge of the flange.

I have a set of Beckman panniers I'm not going to use anymore , made as a match for Bruce Gordon's racks, Low rider front. and custom made rain covers , would be excekllent for a tandem , 4=sized bags, accessory pockets .. PM-FS

Going back to choice of bike, everyone I know who uses a Rohloff hub raves about it and says they would never go back to derailleurs for touring. They virtually never break (unlike derailleurs). I'm convinced - my next touring bike is a Thorn Nomad. I encountered a young man recently who was doing a world tour on a Nomad, he had nothing but good things to say about the bike.

If you are considering Thorn, don't be put off by the fact they are based several thousand miles away from you. They have a pretty good reputation for customer service (in the very unlikely event that the Rohloff fails they undertake to courier a new wheel to the nearest large settlement at their expense) and they give detailed instructions about how to measure yourself so they can build the bike to fit you. And I'm told they're happy to discuss your requirements at length by telephone, e-mail etc. As for your question about the robustness of their racks, Peter Thorn routinely demonstrates his confidence in them by balancing himself on the low loaders at the front. He weighs 80 kilos, five or six times more than I would ever think of putting on a front rack.

Personally I would not recommend an extended tour on a tandem to anyone who didn't know exactly what they were getting into. Tandems are great, but make different demands. Climbing is tougher on a tandem, especially when carrying two people's gear for an extended trip.

As for $1500 per month, I'd say that was manageable if you're camping most of the time. Certainly enough in most of the world, more of a stretch in some parts of Europe depending on how much you want to eat in cafés etc. rather than cook all the time.

Not sure what kind of bicycle you are going to have or get but you can change the handlebar out to what is best for you.If you are buying a new bicycle then ask them to change it out for you are don't get the bicycle form them but most bicycle shops are willing to do what ever it takes to sell one to you.Their are a lot of people like your self that ride bicycle on very long tour and like your self they had the handlebar change out so they could ride a more up right way.Best of luck to the both of you and have a great tour.

Well, that depends on what you're measuring. Certainly the couple needs to be at home on the bike before attempting to tour on it. However my wife climbs twice as fast on our tandem as she could on her single. I obviously climb more slowly on the tandem but I don't care - I never wait for her and she's happy. Two people of equal ability climb exactly as fast on a tandem as on their singles. I once came across a couple on loaded singles, climbing Rainy Pass. The desire to kill was written all over her face. That's what tandems remedy.

Otherwise, it's all about getting the load down. We carry, for two of us, about half the load that many single tourists carry. As a result we climb about one cog lower loaded than we do unloaded. Loaded, our cruise is about 1/2 mph slower than unloaded. The panniers are all but unnoticeable in a headwind, due to the famous tandem draft.

Nancy_sv is currently in Bolivia on a tandem with her family. Erickson Tandems do supported tandem tours in the Alps every year.

How often are incompatible cadence preferences a problem for tandem teams? I could imagine that being an issue in some cases.