indyfabz

You can still buy a Surly frame either through a bike shop or from other on-line retailers. You just cannot buy a complete bike from on-line retailers. You have to go through a shop.

fietsbob

That shop will resell it to you, and ship, onward,
in much the same way they re-box tourist's bikes
and ship them home for them after they complete their trips..
maybe better, because the packing that the TW assembly lines used
in prepping it for shipping in the first place, would be retained.

the web stores may not even open the carton and inspect the bike,
they still put a retail markup on it, so there may not be much significant difference.

If you physically go to 'Brick and Mortar' bike shops you save on the 2nd shipping.

the shipping to the reseller is part of retail margin,
the shipping onward is another charge..

Rob_E

Yes, but to me this just makes the whole concept a little more confusing. The idea that a Surly customer cannot be trusted to attach the handlebars and add the wheels, but they can buy and assemble a complete bike from parts. Which would be more likely to require a mechanic?

I admit that this policy is unlikely to affect me. I own one and lust after several other Surly bikes, but the complete builds do not tempt me. But if I wanted a complete bike, it would annoy me that I had to go through a shop even though I had no need of their expertise and even prefer to do my own work.

c3hamby

Yeah, but you are assuming that the reason Surly isn't letting you mail order bikes is because a customer can't be trusted to put it together. That's why this discussion is fruitless. No one knows why.

I went to an LBS and ordered a complete LHT. It didn't annoy me in the least to do this because the shop gave me 15% off on all accessories. So I got Surly front and rear racks, flashers, headlight, speedometer, Ortliebs, Panaracer Tires, pump, SKS fenders front and rear fenders and a Selle Anatomica saddle. I got 3 fitting sessions and could go back and get more if I wanted, and had 3 adjustments since Feb 2011.

jwbnyc

I don't follow the logic behind this decision.

All of the online shops that I've seen Surly products available from are merely the online arms of local brick and mortar shops.

True, people may be ordering from the shops with the best deals, but I don't see how that hurts Surly or local shops per se.

It's hard to imagine a shop that makes most of its money selling the somewhat eccentric Surly product line.

And as far as the liability issue is concerned, I'd give even money on whether any given consumer or shop employee is more likely to improperly install the wheels, handlebars, seatpost, and saddle, which is pretty much all that is required on any shipped complete.

Bekologist

there's a bit more to taking a bike out of a factory box. For example, hubs are frequently in need of adjustment. Cabling and derailleur adjustments are very frequently needed. Every time I have seen a new bike with the cables wrapped entirely around the headtube stack, money was on customer bought boxed bike.

"I stripped this bolt out, i think the (insert random part name here) was defective" is a common issue with home mechanics.

sstorkel

This is why many shops who sell online take the bike out of the factory box, look it over, and adjust anything that needs adjusting before they send the bike to the buyer. I have friends who've purchased bikes from BikesDirect and Competitive Cyclist. If anything, the online guys did a better job during assembly than our local shops, probably because they knew the buyer couldn't easily bring the bike back for service. Many, but certainly not all, of the shops in my area seem to do a half-assed job during assembly, perhaps figuring that they'll fix things up (and get a chance to sell more over-priced accessories) when the buyer brings the bike back for complimentary service.

What Surly should have done is take a page from Pedal Force's playbook: Pedal Force are happy to ship you a complete bike as a big box of parts with no instructions. You can either put them together yourself, or pay your LBS to do the work. If you pay the LBS, you can mail the receipt to Pedal Force (within 30 days of purchase) and they'll give you a $100 rebate to offset the cost of the assembly.

To me, the Pedal Force policy sounds like a win for everyone involved: the LBS gets some additional service work, the home mechanic gets great Internet pricing, and the buyer who doesn't know how to assemble a bike doesn't pay much/anything to have a local shop do the work.

fietsbob

QBP is a wholesale distributor, sells exclusively to bicycle Retailers,
30 day invoice, or COD.

the online shops sell at Retail, because they are retailers,
then add Another shipping charge to send it to you .

that bike direct stuff is an importer- distribution warehouse,
to consumer, business model.

QBP wants to keep their independent bike dealer clientele,
the great majority of their sales.
I expect they heard an earful at the Interbike trade show,
from their many dealers.

ricebowl

You can blame bekologist for the thread taking a trip down that path. He has yet to cite any actual laws regarding his claims that complete bikes in a box must be assembled by a bike mechanic.
Then leave the option open for the customer. If local is more conveneient, safer and/or cheaper there's no need for Surly to restrict the online sales.

fietsbob

just buy a different brand. just will not Surly/Salsa that game is Over.

those bikes direct things are still selling a boxed import from a warehouse.

... or open a bike shop. be a 'job creator'.

Bekologist

regardless of QBPs decision to stop online internet sales of their complete bikes, and irrespective of your speculation, the Consumer Product Safety Commission has established standards and regulations in place regarding boxed bikes and consumer assembly. There are voluntary industry standards some of the bike manufacturers also adhere to.

I am suggesting CPSC regulation genuinely leaves 'derailleur geared bikes' out of the 'self assembly' category. regardless of the skills of the home wrenches and their delicate sensibilities about their abilities.

And i mean no offense. its a reality thing. i've found most people have a problem with the presta valve the first time out. I can only imagine the horrors that await some greenhorn getting a factory boxed bike at home and going about assembling it to spec.

Wait a second, i've actually seen numerous horrendous examples of poorly assembled internet bikes.

ricebowl

you're the one that brought up "it's saving you the consumer money on shipping angle." If it was more expensive online only the desperate without a local option would buy online. The problem with online sales would take care of itself without surly doing anything. Consumers usually aren't in a rush to spend more for the same product.

ricebowl

Who's speculating? We've asked you to cite the regulations you keep referring to. Could you do that please before you move on with your campaign against all those online companies selling paritially assembled death traps causing blood to flow in the streets.

I worked at a bike shop decades ago as a mechanic and maybe times changed or my shop was different. But it was the low man on the totem pole with the least amount of experience that got stuck assembling bikes. It's not rocket surgery...

I don't mind surly doing what they feel is in their best interests. I object to people trying to paint this as surly looking out for the consumer by givng them fewer options.

sstorkel

Bek isn't going to give you this, because he probably knows that he is outright wrong about his claims. A simple google for "CPSC bike assembly" turns up a number of interesting documents, however:

CPSC Requirements for Bicycles (Regulatory Summary) (PDF)

CPSC General Counsel Advisory Opinion (PDF)

Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) in Title 16, Part 1512

The CPSC Requirements for Bicycles regulatory summary document says two things about assembly:

and

In particular, there seems to be no requirement that a bicycle mechanic or local bike shop be involved in the assembly of a bicycle. If there were such a requirement, then places like BikesDirect, Competitive Cyclist, Colorado Cyclist, Nashbar, Performance Bike, JensonUSA, etc. would all be violating the law by selling complete bikes over the Internet.

c3hamby

LOL! And they couldn't sell frames and individual parts either!!! Try to buy a replacement tire, and they say, 'I am sorry sir, we are prohibited from selling indvidual tires unless it is attached to a bicycle. You will have to buy a bike that has that tire on it if you want the tire. It's the law!'

I like that rule that says 'Adults of normal intelligence must be able to assemble a bicycle that requires assembly'. I have met some people of below normal intelligence that are in illegal posession of the knowledge of how to assemble a bike.

Bekologist

gee, sstorkel, that is EXACTLY what I've been saying. CPSC regulations preclude sending people with a Credit Card and an internet conection a factory boxed, derailleur geared bike.

at least, in my credible assessment of the bike assembly skills of the 'average' american adult! I instituted and taught a "bike 101" class at the LBS i worked at to help out the average bike owner, talked to many new bike owners about bicycle basics. Presta valves, derailleur stops, torque values and cable tension are well beyond the skills of the average internet user with a credit card that wants to save money on a bike build.

I'm not referring to all the crack bike mechanics at BF however and even i'm no expert, I absolutely loathe cup and cone hubs, have taken apart American OPC bottom brackets with a screwdriver, and set my headsets into my frames with a carriage bolt and some washers.

Rob_E

I expect that if I worked in a bike shop, the average person walking through the door would be someone in need of bike-related assistance. You can interpret that as confirmation that most people cannot assemble their own bikes, but it seems like a self-selecting sample. I might as well determine, based on the people I see at my job on a college campus, that the average American is between 18 and 22 years of age and believes that flip flops are suitable footwear for most activities. Oddly enough, once I'm a mile or two from work, my theory on the age demographics and clothing habits of the average American fails to pan out. It turns out that I do not encounter a randomized population on an average day at work.

Bekologist

Actually, i'm pretty confident most people with a CC and an internet connection would be unable to safely assemble and adjust a modern derailleur geared bike out of a factory box to spec, regardless of the inclusion of an assembly manual.

I spent 5 years working at a large and very well regarded independent bike shop. The randomized population walking in the door was representative of 'bike enthusiasts' wanting to save money on bike stuff.

trust me when i state that 'Presta valves, derailleur stops, torque values and cable tension are well beyond the wrenching skills of the average internet user with a credit card that wants to save money on a bike build.' - crack bike mechanics at the BF touring forum excluded, of course.

c3hamby

That not the same thing as saying that the CPSC saying that only bike shops can put bikes together.

fietsbob

ricebowl, sez
Yes.. if.. you pick it up , it's handed to you, over the counter , in the store.

.. want it shipped, that repeats shipping to another address,
& UPS has to get paid again.

sstorkel

Are you really stupid enough to believe that this is what the CPSC regulation means? Or are you just playing dumb to get a few chuckles from the peanut gallery?

Bekologist

I certainly wouldn't trust my next door neighbor to safely assemble a modern, derailleur geared factory boxed bike he just purchased over the internet.

am i stupid for thinking CPSC regulations may be one of the reasons that leads to bicycle manufacturers implementing a policy to stop retailers from sending factory boxed bikes to consumers to assemble themselves?

This is clearly a factor and there's nothing stupid about consumer protection laws, or the policies bike manufacturers set.

all the grousing about no longer being able to indiscriminately purchase a complete factory boxed Surly at a discount are crocodile tears. let me proffer a hankie.

yeah, i'm playing 'dumb' when i suggest derailleur stops, torque values and cable tension are well beyond the wrenching skills of the average internet user with a credit card that wants to save money on a bike build.

"I like that cable routing, once around the headtube - is that a bike you bought over the internet?"

let me let all the grouses in on a little secret about internet commerce - buy a bike frame and build it up. you can even customize the gruppo and wheels, etc because you get to pick them out yourself. if you feel qualified to assemble a factory bike you should have no problem with a frame and some parts.

you could even visit a LBS if you have a problem with the pedals threading onto the arm thingie.

Mail order surly framesets widely available.

Long Haul trucker deluxe frameset from AEbike.com

from a independent brick and mortar store in Kalamazoo.

Rob_E

I'm not really assuming this. I am simply arguing against people who believe in the general ineptness of a Surly customer and who agrees that, in light of that ineptitude, the decision to protect us fools from ourselves makes sense. I'm not saying that Surly is in agreement with these people. I'm just saying that I am not in agreement with these people, and the fact that there are no restrictions on buying and assembling a bike from scratch is also inconsistent with their conclusions.

Do people screw up their bike builds? I have no doubt that sometimes they do. Do people screw up their second or third bike build? I bet the number goes down. Clearly someone who works on bikes for a living would have a higher success rate, but if you want to learn, you have to start somewhere, and a mostly complete bike seems like as good of a starting place as any. If you don't want to learn, there's always the local bike shop.

Where I grew up, bikes were not the norm, cars were. "Shadetree mechanics" were in abundance, including in my own house. While I had respect for the mechanical aptitude that allowed anyone to take a car that wasn't working and turn it into one that was, the ability to swap out some wiring, change an alternator, or replace a radiator hose was hardly considered an invitation to join the intellectual elite. Indeed, even today, when I see a car on blocks in their yard, I figure this is someone with enough basic mechanical skills to at least attempt a repair, and yet such a yard is seldom looked upon as a badge of intellectual superiority. Eventually, out of desperation and lack of finances, I undertook some of my own repairs. As with any venture, my failures taught me at least as much as my successes, and in the end I found that there were a lot of basic repairs that were quite feasible.

I also found that even the more basic car repairs are more complicated, or at least less pleasant almost any bike repair. To be fair, some of that could be remedied with the ability put my car wheel-side-up in my living room.

So, in spite of the low opinion some have of the intelligence of the average bicycle purchaser, I have greater faith in the abilities of my fellow humans. I don't think they need to be protected from the knowledge of how to do their own work, but I can see why it would be in the best interest of a paid mechanic convince them that they cannot learn to assemble their own bikes.

A presta valve may not be intuitive to someone the first time they see it, but most people will only need to be shown once. Ignorance is not stupidity, and ignorance is an opportunity to learn, not an excuse to protect people from knowledge. If someone can't operate a presta valve, they need to be shown. They don't need to rush off to the shop every time their tires get soft.

sstorkel

Bek, it's good to know that you're incapable of answering a simple 'Yes' or 'No' question and instead have to hide behind the same old diatribe you've been repeating since the beginning of the thread...

Again:do you truly believe that the CPSC regulations, as written, prohibit shipping derailleur-equipped bikes to consumers?

Bekologist

CPSC regulations strongly suggest this to bicycle manufacturers, particularly regarding new, factory boxed bikes.

As a case study of direct to consumer bikes, I am surprised Bikesdirect stays in business, but i suspect consumer safety laws in the US are quite weak in the penalties department.

"We save you money by selling bikes factory direct. We ship directly from the distribution warehouse"

" If you are familiar with bicycle assembly, most take about 15 to 20 minutes with brake, shifter, derailleur adjustment and some wheel truing. Some of the higher-end bikes and triathlon bicycles may take a bit longer for assembly and tuning. It is normal for wheels to require some minor truing. It is normal for hydraulic disc rotors and brakes to need bleeding/adjustment."


The number of customer complaints even seen here at BF regarding BD 'warranties' and bikes shipped with damages or bad (insert random part here) suggests to me, at least, shipping average 'mericans a bike in a box and expecting them to get it ready to ride is a fools' game, and one the CPSC does regulate against.

You might think bikes come out of factory boxes tuned and ready to go except for a little assembly, but you're out to lunch on that issue.

Surly has a multitude of reasons to limit complete bikesales; i suggest this was part of the consideration.

I am not affiliated with surly or QBP in any capacity, except as a Surly rider.