That reminds me. The one thing that I have not liked about my ultralight setups is that I kind of miss having panniers that stay on the bike with all my gear in them except my sleeping stuff and clothing for the morning. With light dry bags instead of panniers I tend to wind up with more stuff strewn under the tarp and a few more minutes in the morning spent packing it up. The fact that I have so few items does help though and I can still be underway faster than almost anyone else I have observed in camp.

It is a minor trade off though.

just discussing this with a friend on our last overnight, as we both looked like yard sales when packing up in the morning. (and he had panniers).
my solution is going to be to sew up a small silnylon pad in bright orange or red. it will serve as a tent burrito wrap for my contrail, and as a 'seat' or back pad when in camp but not in tent (i sat on my rain coat around a fire this trip), and as a landing zone for my stuff when setting up and tearing down.

Will your pad have foam or something else inside the silnylon when used for sitting?

Last trip my bivy served as the "landing zone" for packing since it and the tarp could be packed last given that they were carried as a bar roll. I also sit on it when the ground was not suitable and there was no better option

With panniers my stuff mostly lived in the panniers day and night unless in use. It kept camp neat and tidy and meant very quick packing. The answer to doing this with my stuff sacks may just be an adjustment in my habits, but it doesn't seem to happen as automatically since the stuff only fits in a certain way and the packing is tight.

i have some thin foam from gossamer gear that i used in my hammock, thinking that the thing will roll into a 5"x14" diameter tube, with some cinch straps or string on the sides. so it could be maybe 14x18 with some flaps at the ends that fold over. sort of like my old chisel roll (for woodworking).

for me, when i'm thinking clearly, this is what happens:

tarptent comes out, gets setup. (no groundcloth at the moment)
dry bag from front harness gets tossed in entry way (sleeping pad and bag).
tent roll / silpad would go in doorway to keep other gear off the ground, and keep me organized.

if its dry, i change into non sweaty camp clothes (usually just a pair of boxers and shorts or knickers, possibly a patagonia sweater and an ibex base layer)
if its dinner or cold - i pull my stove and start to boil some water for coffee / tea or some food (alky stove or esbit)
if its possible, gather downed wood and start fire (usually only if i'm out with friends, or its early winter - we've been out down into the 20s (F) overnight - i want to push colder this year)
while stove is going i get pad and bag setup in tent, then pull personal stuff from bags and get them into tent - headlamp, eye drops, personal care kit - shovel, wipes, TP, ibuprofen, etc. etc.
enjoy food or drink while its hot / warm.
purify water if needed.
enjoy fire.
sleep.


first time out i did the ground sheet / tarp / sleeping bag (no bugs) - and as soon as i got to camp all gear was ejected onto the ground sheet and i set my tarp up over the top. then i organized for the following day. if it was raining i would have done tarp first, then gear.


for me the big stuff is easier - clothes, cook kit, etc.. its all the small crap that i have with me - meds, contacts, case, eye drops, phone, camera, etc. etc. that i need to refine. had a good go of it last overnight - finally have things grouped into baggies in a more logical way, and only needed to move 1 item around during the trip, so its getting refined. i also picked up some 1 liter and 2 liter sea to summit dry bags. i will be adding a few more in this size in different colors to differentiate stuff, and if they sit out in the dew / rain or under my entry - they will keep everything tidy and dry.

the other thing i noticed is alot of my stuff is dark colored. my friend greg has started to purposely buy his gear and bags and stuff in really bright, almost garish color. on a solo backpacking trip up to nova scotia on the coast he tired of looking for all his black gear in the bottom of his dark pack and stuff sacks.



the other thing i want the little ground pad for is changing. last few times either dew or rain wet the ground and i really appreciate having something relatively dry to stand on when i change clothes / shoes / etc. yeah, silly i know, and more for stealth or wild camping - but its a luxury to me not to have wet forest stuff stuck to my socks or tights or feet bottoms when changing.


and, from years ago when i would hike out and sketch and write i have some longer pack webbing with a few ladderlocks on them that i used to use as a makeshift seat. i carried one of those thermarest things for my bottom, but used the webbing to form a loop around my body when sitting on the ground. it is adjustable and forms a loop around your feet and middle back or just under your arms. pull it tighter to pull in your feet and raise your knees, or loosen it up to relax a bit. works to self contain and balance your self without needing a chair. and only adds minimal weight - but can be used for emergency lashing / carrying / etc. i'm likely to remake one using some linelock adjusters sewn onto wider webbing or fabric for around the back.


but as i was sitting at the fire i was thinking about asana's woobie parka. maybe i just need a tipi like parka that i sit in / sleep in / etc.
lean against a tree or something.

My 1970's teenage touring involved me and 2 mates on Rayleighs and Claud Butlers. 3 x Holofill sleeping bags and a two man tent, aPrimus stove, now showering and zero change of clothes......man did we stink after a couple of nights. No tarps

that first bit sounds like extra gear but i understand you want something like that. i just use the tyvek or plastic i'm using as a groundcloth for sitting on when i'm riding ultralite.

as to the second bit, ever seen or used a footless climber's sleeping bag? not an elephant foot, but a footless.

I've used these types of sleeping bags intermittently for a couple of decades, (early Marmot alpine NEST bag, now an Exped footless bag) but never sported down the cash for an Epic shelled down version of the climbers' sleeping bag from feathered Friends.

if people are looking for a nice, versatile way to combine your camp insulation with your sleeping system, a footless, wearable sleeping bag is the bomb.

feathered friends speciality sleeping bags-rock wren - 22 ounces

and the one i currently have, fromExped,

the Exped Dreamwalker ( look up the Dreamwalker sleeping bag at the exped website)

Exped also makes a down version of the dreamwalker, but i chose the synth as it needs less minding when conditions go wet.


great for general grovelling and treehollow wallowing.

This is why I still like the saddlebag and front bag setup. My saddlebag stays on the bike nearly all the time and keeps things organized. I also pack similar items is stuff sacks to keep the clutter down. When I get into camp I set up the tent first and then the sleeping pad, pillow and bag/quilt. All empty stuff sacks go inside the compression bag I use for the tent, which in turn goes in the saddlebag. As I'm usually in campsites with showers my next move is to put on my kung fu shoes and go to the shower block with my front bag, and a change of clothes. I shower, wash what I was wearing that day by stomping on it in the shower, wring it out really well and put on clean clothes, usually a L/S shirt and my convertible long pants. Back at the campsite I hang my clothes up to dry, collect wood for a fire and make tea or something to eat. Then, if necessary, I'll hang food and toiletries up a tree and put riding shoes, cook set etc in my saddlebag and close the lid tight to keep stuff dry if it rains. When I go to bed I take my front bag which has everything I need, all electronics is in a small nylon bag, so I have head lamp, iPhone and battery to hand. If the iPhone battery is low I put it on charge. If I think it will be cold I'll take my Driclime jacket and long johns/tights. My kung fu shoes are the only thing I put in the vestibule.

In wear my clothes from the previous night the next day. I'll sometimes make tea and porridge.....but my preference is to strike camp asap and head to a local diner for breakfast.

That sounds like it works much the same way as panniers in that regard. I can see where that would be nice. Thus far I have balked at both the price and the weight of the big saddlebags and bag man support though.

Now that you mention it, I will say that when I am on the road bike and have the handlebar bag it helps a bit.

I have the down Dreamwalker now. I really like it for its versatility. But what sold me was the size. It is long and wide. It's light for its size, not really an ultra light bag, but it is for me. I'm 6'5" with wide shoulders (68"), and it fits me comfortably. I really wanted an FF Rock Wren, but it was so tight around the shoulders (60") that it was a no go. I asked them about getting a wider version, but it was an extra $400. That took it right off the list.

no groundcloth, and if i did, it would be under the tent or tarp, no?
yeah, i could cut up a small piece of tyvek, but i'm thinking dual use here. certainly heavier than the stuff sack for the contrail, but additional use as a butt pad / foot pad / gear organizer as well as a compression sack would be nice.

my buddy just drags out his sleeping pad - but i hate having that go in and out of the tent in the wet.

maybe i need to sew my own seat bag that pops off and becomes a burrito gear wrap of sorts. or re-do my front harness to do that same thing. hmmm.
then its my luggage, not anything extra.


love those michelin man sleeping bags. pretty cool.
not looking for combining camp insulation with sleep insulation - as i would carry a nano puff or down vest in the cool as i would likely throw it on off bike for store / repair / photos - can't see fixing a flat in the dreamwalker.

The price of the Carradice stuff is a bit high, but I spent the money on mine 7 years ago so I need to amortize that cost by using it;)

The weight is a drawback, but one I can live with......2lbs is not light, but at least I don't have to use the Bagman anymore. I wish a reasonably pricednylon version of the Camper was available. What the Ortlieb/Camper setup does have is that it's designed as luggage, with lids for access and straps for carrying. As I'm often in towns or going to stores I love the ease with which I can take the Ortlieb front bag on and off the bike. Also if I want to put the bike on a bus or train it's simple to take the two bags off and I just have 2x bags to carry that between them weigh 20lbs. The Ortlieb goes over the shoulder and I carry the Carradice with the straps on the lid, although I have sewn a couple of D-rings on it as well if I ever want to attach a shoulder strap. That strap can be fashioned from the previously mentioned straps on the lid. If I'm flying the Carradice goes in a the bike bag with the bike and the Ortlieb is my carry on. Having just 2 pieces of luggage makes bike touring easy and it also makes negotiating public transportation pretty easy. You can carry everything up stairs or over fences easily too.

That's double usage. The true ULers wear the sleeping bag as the insulation layer and end up looking like Michelin men or hobos. I'm with you as far as insulation goes, I like a dedicated jacket. For 3 seasons its the Marmot Catalyst, it's good in camp and great to ride in when it's cold and windy. i can't imagine trying to ride wrapped in a sleeping bag or quilt, too cumbersome and probably too hot. I don't tour in the winter, but if I did I'd use my Montbell UL Thermawrap. I combine this with my Mica shell as my everyday winter coat(s).

I used a bag with a drawstring at the feet for a while. I found my feet tended to get cold. So if you go that route it may require something extra for the feet.

I used a down vest as a pillow for a while with the idea that it would be clothing and a pillow and emergency sleeping insulation, but don't think I ever put it on as a vest of for warmth at night when on tour even when the overnight lows hit 18F. So I started using a 3 ounce Exped inflatable pillow and leaving the vest home.

i don't need it in my current bag, plenty warm down into the 20s. maybe if i tried to go colder.
i could see using that if i got a summer weight bag, and stretched out the range i use it in, or went higher in elevation.

my feet sleep hot, so i'm always sleeping with my bag open a bit on the bottom, unless we get into the 40s.

i used a freezer sized ziplock once for a pillow. worked ok.
or the dry bag i carry extra clothes in, stuffed with whatever and rolled while puffed with air. tucked into the sleeve in my bag.

I usually zip my bag wide open and use it as a quilt down to at least the 40s. My comments about my feet getting cold were more about sub freezing temperatures.

I love the Exped pillow and figure it is worth the 3 oz. for the added comfort. The way it is shaped means that for me at least it stays under my head better than any of the improvised pillows that I have used.

I keep everything packed.
for me, there is no reason to strew things out.
I call that "The Explosion", you want to avoid this.

I keep everything on the bike, or at least as much as possible stays on the bike.
the bike is the rack
the bike is the primary mover.

to stay light, I keep everything off the ground, until the last minute.
I only pitch the ParaTarp when its time to crash out
when I wake up, its the first thing to come down

for me this is an old Army throwback.
I was in a Light Artillery Air Assault unit part of the 7th Infantry Division Light, here on Ft. Ord.
nothing touches the ground that doesn't have to absolutely be there.

minimizing and organizing is key.

This was supposed to be a picture thread, so here's a sort-of lightweight setup I put together. I haven't toured with it yet. Except for my down sleeping bag and cat stove, there isn't really any ultralight gear in there. I saved weight by leaving a bottle cage, rear brakes, front derailer, pedals and air in the tires behind. :lol: I plan on adding a small front rack for the sleeping pad or tent, or both, to free space for a bigger camera, tripod on top of the Carradice and most importantly, food, which is the only thing really missing. There's no lock either. I plan on using this for short 3-5 day tours. EDIT: just thought I could roll the pad without folding it and strap it to the top tube.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=273609

I will still use 4 panniers for longer tours even though I can easily fit everything into two. I actually put all my gear, including tripod and front panniers in the rear panniers for air travel (plus a carry on daypack, used as handlebar bag). I still prefer using 4 panniers for better organization and weight distribution, plus I don't want to have to cram my gear in all the time. The other thing is food. On longer trips, I don't want to have to find food in small packages every day. I want to add more backpacking during my tours and that means I have to carry lots of food sometimes. On my last trip, I went on a 5-day hike, biked 2 days to get there and another day to get to the next town after. That's 8 days. I found out at the last minute there were a cafeteria and small store at the base of the mountain but it wasn't cheap and the store had very limited choice so I still had to bring lots of food.

Oh my cow, I made it!

I don't poke around these forums as much as I used to, but saw this thread and have been reading through it the past few days. I've posted some lightweight touring bits here and there before and was usually met with derision from the "fully loaded" hard liners. The way I see it, I have nothing to prove either way. I don't need to carry a month's worth of food plus 5 changes of clothes and a portable shower to prove my total self reliance and I don't need to go so light that I'm huddling under a small tarp in the rain in a claustrophobic (to me) bivy. Everyone should find their own little sweet spot, but never hold hard to it. Systems are ever changing. I think everyone could benefit from going light, but UL is not required. This has been argued/stated a few times already, but I thought I'd put it into words to preface my own journey.

I started commuting a couple of years ago and the general impression was that panniers were a requirement. Well, coming from the backpacking side of things, and trying to keep things light there, it didn't take me long to become disenchanted with 4-5 pounds of just a rack and bags making my bike ride funny (tail wagging the dog) and harder to carry up stairs. In an effort to go lighter, I ditched the panniers and started just strapping a backpack to the rack. Still had the tail wagging the dog feeling and one day just as I got near campus, the bag fell to one side, so rather than readjusting my bungees I just threw it on my back and thought "Hey, this isn't too bad." I lost the rack and bought an Osprey Talon 22 that I've been commuting with since. Yes, even through Texas summers. Sweaty back? Yeah, but it was already sweaty...

All that to say as far as racks vs. rackless, I don't think it's required for UL, but for me and my riding style/bikes of choice, rackless made so much more sense. However, for camping/touring I feel like rackless sans backpack is the ultimate goal for myself.

Here's one example from a previous trip:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Inc/tour23.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...yInc/pack1.jpg

The tent is in the orange bag on the seat. The sleeping pad/bag are in the bag strapped to the front. The rest went into the backpack. Gear worked great, but horrible route/trip planning made that trip a disaster. In terms of weight, my old spreadsheet tells me total gear including food (2 dinners, 3 breakfasts, lunch was to be purchased on the road), but before water was 17.2 pounds. Base without food was 15.3 pounds. And that's with a cheapish 2+ pound down bag and a 3 pound Eureka Spitfire 1 man tent. Less than 200 bucks in gear there. I plan on a much nicer sleeping bag (only thing on the Christmas list...)

This is the next adventure:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...flashbag10.jpg

Revelate seat bag plus a DIY frame bag. I need to make a second, as this one is a touch small, but with an expansion for the top strap, I can fit my tent poles between the top of the bag and the top tube. This will have to do for the trip next weekend. I'll post a more detailed list with some weights over the next week.

Really enjoying this thread. I loved Asana's masking tape trick and might use the most recent (can't remember the poster) ridiculous suggestion of using a ziploc freezer bag as a pillow. My nice camp pillow is very bulky and not very light.

Making your own burrito wrap that doubles as a sitpad makes a lot of sense. you could probably box stitch & barge cement a piece of foam to a Revelate handlebar wrapper.

I can't see fixing a flat in the dreamwalker either, just wanted to highlight them for anyone looking to reduce weight/bulk even more. I like it for sitting around camp. Also, getting up to answer nature's call in the middle of the night while still wearing your sleeping bag is astonishingly rewarding. Really - the first time you don't have to pee in a bottle or get out of your sleeping bag to take a leak, it's like you've been awarded the grand prize in camping out.

That said, i've frequently gone with my usual UL down bag as it packs smaller than my synthetic dreamwalker, but have long had my sights on the feathered friends rock wren as the ultimate refinement in UL bags.

Looking at the list trying to organize for next weekend and thought I should talk a little bit about my tent of choice because it's lightweight on a budget. Definitely not UL territory like a tarptent or other single wall shelter, but for my region (mostly humid southern climate) I felt like a double wall tent made the most sense. I did a single wall tent on a motorcycle trip camping in Alabama and the condensation was intense. Plus, bugs are usually a guarantee here, so a fully mesh structure vs. a bivy plus a headnet or something like that is kind of nice.

Anyhow, it's the Eureka Spitfire 1, and for the price to weight ratio, it's pretty unbeatable. It retails for 130, but can be found for usually around 100 bucks online. At this price, I don't even bother with the extra weight/bulk of a ground cloth. Plus, if one floor wears out, buy a second tent and suddenly, you have spares in case a pole breaks or something. Setting up is a snap with clips rather than sleeve poles. And the poles are the nice aluminum DAC featherlite poles, not cheapie fiberglass.

Ditch the something like 8 heavy steel stakes they provide, replace them with 4 MSR needle stakes and you'll bet set. You only need 2 stakes to pitch the body as the tent poles do a good enough job of making the floor taught side to side. 2 more stakes to pitch the fly taught and you're good to go. (Note: Obviously, in heavy wind situations, more stakes are better, especially for guy lines). Also, I understand why people tend to lean toward freestanding tents for convenience, which sometimes limit your options. Worst case scenario, with this design I could tie one end to the bike and another to a rock/log and have a pretty solid pitch for the body.

The fly is fully taped from the factory, but I did turn it inside out and find a few weak spots to touch up with some liquid seam sealer. It survived a nearly night long rain storm without a leak.

Advertised minimum weight is 2 pounds 12 ounces, which I believe is the fly, body and poles only. With my fly, body and poles plus a compression sack and the MSR needle stakes, mine comes in right at three pounds. As far as packability goes, look at the picture a couple of posts up with the orange compression sack hanging on the back of my Specialized Roubaix. Obviously, you'll have to store the poles separately, But they're not super long (see picture above for relative scale). They should be able to fit underneath most top tubes in the supplied pole bag.

Interior size is great. I'm 6'2" and I can lay down without my head or feet touching on either end. I can also sit up, change clothes, read a book/check the weather on the phone, etc. They also make a 2 person tent for a little over a pound more. Same design that should only require 2 stakes for the body.

All in all, I can find some lighter options, but very very few of them are double wall tents and all of them are at least double the price for a relatively insignificant weight savings. Another friend of mine did a multi month (about 3 I think?) tour and pretty much lived in the same model tent. I asked him how it held up over heavy use and he said it was perfect. Knowing his style, I seriously doubt he used a ground cloth, either.

So anyhow, thought that might be helpful for anyone looking for a budget shelter option to lighten the load.

We're not ultralight but my wife and I have it down to 40-44 lbs. for both of us, including all racks, panniers, bags, tools, pump, etc., everything except the bike and bottles. We're very comfortable. One think I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is electronics. We were surprised at how much our total weight in gadgets was. How do you evangelists deal with these things? I'm talking long tour here, being out for weeks.

Cell phone. Really need one to keep in touch, emergencies, reservations, things go wrong, etc. OK, then you also need its charger and cord.

Kindle. If you're going foreign, or even if you're not, it's nice to have travel documents of various sorts, maps, hotel web pages, lists, reservations, a book or two, etc. Easiest and lightest is to bring along a Kindle. Then you're also going to need it's charger and cord.

Camera. Then you're going to need a spare battery and a battery charger.

Garmin. If you're touring with a Garmin and camping, you'll need its charger and some sort of battery pack(s) to recharge it when you're in the field.

Lamps and blinkies. It's like these don't even exist. We run fore and aft blinkies whenever we're on the bike. In Europe, there's aren't little stores everywhere. If one is not to be a slave to shopping, one will have to carry at least one set of spare batteries for each blinky. Headlamp for the head: gotta have one of those. Headlamp for the bike: gotta have one of those. More batteries. We tried to reduce total battery weight by using devices and packs that used rechargeable AA batteries as much as possible, then carried an AA battery charger, along with 8 AA rechargeables. However our rear blinkie uses AAA and our front uses N.

All these devices, their batteries, and chargers weigh something. So what do folks do to minimize these weights? It's true that many devices can now be charged off a very light USB charger, but many devices still want their own chargers.

My electronics include a rear blinkie and a head lamp, both use AAA batteries and I carry 4 spare. I have a very small radio that I clip to my belt and head phones (it runs on a single AAA battery). Finally I have an iPhone, external battery pack, charger plug and cable. The battery can recharge the iPhone 5 times. I use the iPhone as my camera, book reader, music player, web browser, navigation aid and to blog and email.

PS. You sounds as if you are in the lightweight category......me too, my gear weighs 20lbs, lighter and I feel I'd start to give up comfort.

The electronics in my bike pack are pretty minimal. I have a cell phone and charger, about 6 oz I think. I rarely use the phone and charge it once every few weeks. I have AA batteries in my lights, but seldom use them and do not carry any spare batteries.

I may not be typical, but here is what I do.

Not sure about others but, I deal with them by minimizing them either by taking the lightest of them or skipping many of them.

Not an absolute necessity, But I do carry one. I tried to select it to be light and serve as many functions as is possible. The device weighs about 4.5 ounces and has books, documents, and music on it. It also is a GPS, camera, email appliance, web browser, etc.

Actually it isn't necessarily the lightest way to go. I take documents on my phone. I find much less time to read when on tour than at home, but when I do I listen to audio books on my phone.

Again not a given. Some cell phones have surprisingly decent cameras these days. I have carried a separate camera up until now, but could well see myself using just the phone depending on the trip. My cameras batteries are quite light and last a long time, so going without the charger isn't out of the question even for a couple months. That said I do usually take a charger setup that works with all my devices and the whole deal weighs about 2 ounces. I have a couple different setups depending in the devices I take. One setup uses a aftermarket camera battery charger along with a micro USB cable that plugs into the camera battery charger to charge other devices using it.

I'd be likely to take anywhere from no separate camera, to a 4.5 ounce camera, to 2.5 pounds of camera stuff.

I don't usually take a garmin, but when I do it is a handheld that uses 2 AA batteries. It weighs 5 ounces and two sets of AA batteries weigh 2.2 ounces if you use lithium batteries and 3.2 if alkalines.

I really go light on light. I quit carrying a headlamp because I so seldom used it. Rather than dig it out I usually just skipped using it The only camp light I have been carrying on the last couple trips is a 0.2 ounce eGear PICO LED Zipper Lite. It lasts 15 hours and I can easily go 6 months on that since I tend to use it for 5-15 seconds at a clip and not all that frequently. I wear it on a chain around my neck with a dog tag type ID. That way I actually do use it because it is always right there. I used it on my San Diego to Sarasota tour, my more recent 9 days in Colorado, a few days of backpacking, and some use at home. All in all probably close to 2 months and I bet it still has way more battery left than has been used thus far. If in doubt another complete light is only 0.2 ounces and $10.

I seldom use a blinkie on tour, but lately I have been carrying a eGear Tag-It Safety Light. I forget what it weighs, maybe 0.5 ounces or so. I typically don't use it enough to worry about carrying batteries for it even if going for a few months.

If I do worry about visibility I have a hi viz mesh vest that I have taken before, but left home last trip.

What I'm reading is the except for lighting, which only depends on one's comfort level, the lightest is to use an iPhone for everything, and bring enough weight in battery packs to keep it charged for your propective TBH (time between hotels). Can you really read books on an iPhone? Kindle of course is fine for that and goes 30 hours if one reads evenings with an LED headlamp. Hardly ultralight, though.

I brought a Kindle dictionary, but it was a real PITA. Wished I'd had some sort of translation software. Is there an app for iPhone or similar?