I've used a jacksRbetter Hudson River quilt with wings a few years and always had cold draughts when I rolled over. Quilts are ok in mild temps. but i find that you have to do as much as possible to make them into sleeping bags to stay warm in the cold. Getting a bigger quilt so you can get down around as much of you as possible starts to defeat the supposed advantages of quilts. If you sleep on you side there's not much area underneath you and you need down all around you to stay warm. The neck area is another area where quilts can let the cold in and pulling it over your head is a bad thing to do in the cold as the last thing you want is all the water vapour from your breath inside the quilt. So a hood is a big advantage.

A good UL bag will be a few oz heavier than the same rated quilt, but my experience is it's more comfortable too. I just bought a Montbell UL Super Spiral Down Hugger #3. It's rated to 30F and weights 22oz. The material is 15 denier ballistic nylon and is a lot softer than the jacksrbetter nylon. The fill zip means it can be a quilt in warm weather and I can roll around in it and never have draughts or bits on me that aren't covered by down. The best thing about the bag is it stretches so there are no cold air pockets and I can move my arms and legs around a lot. I usually don't like mummy bags as I feel confined in them, but the Montbell gets around that issue pretty well.

I've been using Marmot Plasma and very happy with it. Much more room than Western Mountaineering bag that I had.

Yeah, this is something everyone needs to figure out for themselves. For what it's worth WM also sells wider bags, but personally I love the tight fit of my Ultralight. I like that it's never drafty, even if I don't have the draft collar and hood cinched, but I'm absolutely content to sleep with my hands either crossed over my chest or by my sides, and I usually sleep with my legs crossed anyways. Other people like to twist into weird pretzel shapes with their legs in a figure 4.

Quilts are interesting, if I didn't have super sweet sleeping bags already I'd check it out, but I have to admit I'm pretty attached and dialed into sleeping bags. I'm generally down for ultralight nonsense.

I can't sleep on my back at all, but I use a pair of quilts to hike all year. Drafts are a problem if you don't keep the edges down or flop around too quickly/recklessly, but drafts can be a problem in sleeping bags too if you flop around. The only time I use a sleeping bag is when I'm car camping and the weight and bulk of my synthetic sleeping bag isn't an issue.

Of course you have to wear something on your head. Most of the year I use a Rayway bomber hat. It's synthetic, so I can wear it and sweat in it a little while hiking. When it's going to drop into the low 20's °F for many night or much lower for any time, I'll bring a down balaclava. I find like better than a hooded sleeping bag because I can turn around without putting my face into a hood or getting the zipper "lost".

I will move around a bit when I'm sleeping. Because I don't have a wide sleeping bag, I may wake up briefly at night if I turn and don't have a lot of room, but I've never been cold.

anything synthetic from Mammut. Top quality, reasonable prices, great performance.

Why synthetic? i wouldn't take anything from dawn with me just because if it gets wet, forget about using it. It is slightly more compressible and a little bit lighter than cheapest sythetics, but that's it. Maybe it works for some places on earth, but not where i live.

A synthetic bag will stay warm even when it is wet while down bag loses its warmth when it is wet. A synthetic bag is also easier to clean than a down bag, and often a lot cheaper. Down will compress much smaller and will provide lighter bag for the same temperature rating, provided it stays dry.

Have you tried hand washing a down bag? I have. It took me a lot of time, effort and a full bathtub to get them soaked. If you're keeping your bag wrapped while riding and sleeping in a tent, how are you going to find all that water to soak your bag?

As far as a synthetic sleeping bag staying warm, that's a myth or misstatement. It also loses warmth. Try it for yourself. Heck, try it tonight. I bet your nights are already cold enough to provide a good

While a synthetic bag may be cheaper initially, they don't last as long as down bags and accordingly have very depressed resale value.

From what I've seen, the people that have problems with down sleeping bags are the new and reckless. The folks that don't adequately protect their sleeping bag while travelling, sleep directly on the ground, and pitch their tent very poorly and then allowing their sleeping bag to touch the tent wall...along with other mistakes. Even then, it results in a cold night, but I've never seen a total loss of insulation. Those mistakes can be prevented with education before heading out on a trip. The small amount of moisture that collects can easily be eliminated with a brief stop at a laundromat or a longer stop to lay the bag out in the sun.

There are two occasions when I think there's good reason for a synthetic bag. The first is when nights hover in the high 30°F's with very high humidity (pea soup fog). The second is during an extended outing in sub-freezing conditions when there won't be an opportunity to dry out gear, and preferably weight is not carried. These two result in sweat vapor condescending in the insulation, and in the second it'll accumulate throughout the trip.

In the second case, I've not heard of a high altitude climbing expedition that used anything but down bags. These expeditions last for weeks and the bags do fine. My experience is that water vapor does not condense in the down. I've been using down bags for 50 years and never had a wet bag.

Your point about not letting the bag touch the tent is well taken. I've always used a double wall tent large enough so that's seldom a problem. Touring, a double tent for one person and the three person for two people will do the trick, plus allowing you to bring all your gear into the tent.

Another thing one can do wrong is to pitch one's tent in a hollow before a rainstorm. One can also use too thin a pad or a half pad that allows the bag to rest on a wet tent floor following mistake #1. I've done both those things a couple of times and bailed myself out with a PackTowl. I just pack the bag wet and it dries out fine the next night.

Another thing one can do with a down bag is to bring wet clothes into the bag and have them dry by morning. I normally do this after riding or hiking in the rain. It always works as long as one doesn't bring in way too much stuff. But that's a good case for having a bag that's a little warmer than the absolute minimum.

Not soaking the bag with sweat is a matter of not using too much insulation or too little ventilation. For me that often means zipping my mummy bag open and using it quilt style, especially early in the night before it gets cold. It might mean hanging a foot or leg out to stay cool enough. As it gets colder I climb in the bag but leave it unzipped. Then as it get colder still, I zip it up. Colder yet and I put on the hood and tighten the draw string.

If the bag is not warm enough I add some clothing. Sometime it works better to drape some clothes over your body rather than wear them. I find that sock are especially important when at the limits of the bag.

I like to use a 1 pound Mountain Hardware Phantom 45 for all but real winter camping. It was fine for me on a February ST including quite a few nights with sub freezing lows and at least one night in the teens. That was with one layer of clothes and two pairs of socks. I added a silk liner only on the very coldest nights. I do tend to put out heat like a furnace, so for most folks a bit warmer bag is a good idea. That might mean something like the Mountain Hardware Phantom +32 which is on sale at REI.

I have not had a problem keeping my down bag dry enough even when using a bivy. Sometimes there would be a bit of water or ice on the surface, but it brushed right off (the bag has a DWR shell). I don't think I'll buy another synthetic bag unless the technology improves significantly. I do have a nice synthetic bag that I use when camping with my daughter because she is quite allergic to down. If sleeping in the same tent as someone in a down bag she wakes up with her face all puffy and sinuses all stopped up. My synthetic bag is a 20 F North Face Cat's Meow and is a lot warmer than I typically need.

I used to have a leaky tent. When the rain got in one night, bottom half of my synthetic sleeping bag soaked up enough water to leave my legs and feet wet, but I stayed reasonably warm. Using a down bag, I was once in a situation where water got into the tent. I noticed the cold right away.

I need a new bag and so may I ask what you sleeping bag gurus think of this one? It's down, 32 deg. rating meaning I'm hoping it keeps me alive to 42 degrees and weighs in at 1 lb 13 oz

https://www.rei.com/product/830938/se...i-sleeping-bag

Or are there better choices out there with similar specs for less money?
As always, thanks for your input.

Robow, the bag you've got looks like it would suit your needs but there's a similar bag available through Mountain Equipment Co-op for considerably less. The weight is just a little more than the one you've listed.

https://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/GiftId...ing-bag-0c.jsp

I've have both bags and quilts.

My two favorite sleeping bags are Big Agnes models, one rated to 30F and another rated to 0F. As noted previously Big Agnes models have a sleeve on the bottom into which one inserts a pad. I've used both closed-cell foam (CCF) pads, inflatable pads, and the combination of both. When I used to sleep on the ground I preferred the an inflatable pad and used a thin CCF pad beneath the inflatable pad as puncture protection and additional insulation.

I now sleep in a hammock and have switched to quilts. I have a Golite Ultralite quilt rated to 20F that weights 1.5 lbs. It works very well and I could easily use it lower than the 20F rating. I also have a Jacks R Better Sierra Stealth quilt rated to about 45F that weighs 15 oz, and I made a lightweight quilt (about 16oz) using Climashield that is good to about 53F. For temperatures above 30F I tend to use my two lightweight quilts combined and they work very well together. It is these two quilts I now use on bike tours -- modular system of synthetic and down that weights less than 2 lbs and works well to at least 30F (I have not yet tested below 30F).

One poster mention that with quilts there is no head protection. When needed, I wrap or drape my jacket and/or a shirt around my head and neck. I've used this method below 20F and it works well for me.

Condensation control is tough. Keeping rain and puddles out is much easier.

Yes, weight is very important with climbing trips, so it's no surprise that they'll use down insulation.

Water vapor will certainly condense within the insulation. That is to say, before it exits the outer fabric. It can be next to impossible to notice without weighing the bag. Sometimes you get lucky and the water vapor will condense after leaving the outer layer and leave a layer of frost on the surface of the bag, but that doesn't always happen. It usually doesn't take too long to dry out though.

That's a pretty bad mistake. It happens though, especially when we're too exhausted to think clearly. Using a lightweight bivy or an inflatable mattress can help with this.

I hate bringing up the bivy because setting up a shelter in a puddle is a bad thing, even with a tent that has a bathtub floor. But if you have the bivy, at least it'll help if things get this bad. The bivy will also help with condensation by moving the condensation gradient out of the bag and into the bivy where it will condense. There may be frost or puddling inside the bivy, but the former isn't a problem and the latter shouldn't be a problem with water resistant and waterproof shells.

The inflatable mattress is nice for getting off the wet ground. Hopefully it's nothing more than condensation.

This could be done with any type of insulation, at least if a vapor barrier isn't used. I do agree with having a little more insulation than absolutely necessary, although for me it's usually because I occasionally let my body temperature drop too much before crawling into my bag, so it's nice to have extra insulation to warm back up faster.

I mostly agree. Good technique should prevent too much internal condensation. Some will inevitably happen occasionally, especially when sleeping in heavy fog like when sleeping on the shore of a lake. The shore of a lake, while idyllic, is a terrible place to camp because of condensation. There are a couple ways to prevent condensation in insulation, but I'm not sure they warrant much discussion. 1. vapor barrier. 2. warm tent.

That's what I mention directly above. With a bivy, it can be warm enough within the insulation that the water vapor won't condense until it leaves the shell of the sleeping bag. If it's warm enough, the water vapor will also pass through the bivy, but if it's cold enough, it'll condense between the outer shell of the sleeping bag and the bivy. This is a good thing, and quite effective when it's cold enough for that vapor to turn into ice because all you have to do to get rid of it is flip the bivy inside-out in the morning and shake out the ice.

Down sleeping bags have been my choice for many decades for backpacking, kayak touring and bike touring. Ten years ago I read about Nunatak down quilts and ordered one. I no longer have any traditional sleeping bags. Many of the complaints or concerns about quilts are easily addressed using a UL bivy or a wider quilt. There is a short learning curve in adjusting to three season quilt use. The quilt advantages I quite like are reduced packed volume for the same level of warmth and lack of confinement in a mummy type sleeping bag. Quilts are a great improvement for me and maybe for others.

I have used 3 bags extensively for long distance hiking (along with several others). I'm also not sure that I agree with this big concern about down getting wet. I got pretty wet during a bizarre Memorial Weekend snowstorm (12+ inches) in the Angeles Crest Forest (or whatever it's called) in '08 while camping under a poncho tarp (I choose a larger tarp now) and I didn't have any problems the next night.

The Jacks are Better Sniveller quilt - it's a little too narrow for a side sleeper unless I bring a bug bivy which keeps the sides close to the ground. This is pretty bulky (for down) though but good to at least 25F with a tarp.

Montbell Super Sleeper #3 (I think) - This weighs the same (or more) as the JRB quilt but there is almost a 10F temp difference in warmth and I haven't used it for awhile due to the JRB being better. Overall this is a really nice bag though.

Mammut lightweight synthetic that weighs about 1 lb (18? oz perhaps) and is rated somewhere in the mid 40's F.

At some point I should get the JRB Sierra Stealth but it would only save a few oz's and there are more important things to spend money on.

edit - forgot to mention that the JRB quilts have a head hole (velcro) and can be worn as a poncho. Not easy to move around in but really nice in camp on cold days when your only options are to be in your sleeping bag or shivering.

In warm months it's easy to keep a bag dry. You night get some condensation in your tent/bivy that then drips onto the outside of your bag, but the down itself will stay dry. The danger comes when it's cold, then your sweat can actually condense inside the down. This is why some people recommend using a vapor barrier inside the bag to stop water evaporating form your body ever getting to the bag. You'll stay warm, but it sounds very uncomforatble to me.

is this based on theory or experience? I used a down bag for 100+ days at sub 40F temps and I never had these issues.

Me either. BTW my mention of a "July ST tour" was a typo. I actually started in February and finished in March. I had quite a few sub freezing nights and experienced ice or a few drops of moisture either on the outside of the bag's DWR shell or in the bivy. Perhaps the down collecting frozen moisture is a bigger concern when the daytime highs are subfreezing day after day for longish periods. I will not likely be touring then though.

I have periodically read on this forum and the BPL forum critical comments of VBL's most often from those who have never tried them at all or who only have used the plain nylon/garbage bag approach which IS awful in my direct experience.

I have been using Stephenson's VBL clothing for the last 20 plus years in almost all conditions except those above 60F. They have kept my down bags and quilts dry and clean and their increased warmth factor has allowed me to use a lighter bag or quilt. The knapped nylon surface feels like flannel sheets. There is little or none of the clammy feeling you get from plain nylon VBL bags or sil-nylon material only. If you get too warm you just open the main zipper and the moisture vapor disperses via the chimney effect of hot air rising. Zip back up when you cool down enough. And the price is right too $25 for the shirt! Give one a try. [I neither work for them or receive free samples to hype. I just found a product that works for me in spite of the skepticism I encounter on every kayak and bike touring trip.]

Vapour barriers are the cold weather solution. It may be theory or practice, but it has been around a hell of a long time, from the Mickey Mouse boots they used on everest in the 50s (which was just army stuff from before), to VB technology today. Basically vapor is produced by the body, and moreso in cold dry weather. If the bag is warm it has to condense in the bag, if the bag is cold, there may be enough heat to drive it out. VBs do three things: protect the bag; reduce your water loss; and make you feel a whole lot warmer.

The only downside is a that they can make you sweat too much if you are doing something with spikes of effort. So sleep is ideal for them, high altitude climbing with a consistent slog rate is another possibility. Gear with lots of ventilation potential, like under arm zips is good.

No personal experience, I'm warm inside after Columbus Day. I'm just relaying the thinking behind vapor barriers and what I've read about the problems of moisture and cold nights. I've never had issues with wet bags; inside of the tent, definitely.

Then I probably wouldn't take specific VBL clothing on a bike trip because it sounds like a terrible thing to wear while riding. But if you want something with some VB qualities just put on your rain shell, not perfect, but I imagine it would reduce the water vapor getting to the bag, even if it is made from one of the "breathable" fabrics, although it doesn't sound as if it's really a problem. So maybe don't bother with a VBL sleep sack, just put on your rain jacket and pants.

That works in modest temps. The real VB bag is a waterproof sac, and it really holds in vapour from everything, including feet. But I would not have any use for that in cycling. Maybe the two Germans who crossed Canada in winter... When we were kids, we used to wear plastic bags in out boots and it really helped, and made the boots easier to get on.