Thinking about Adventure Cycling's cross-country bike trails. I'm kicking around the idea of doing one of these during the winter.

Anyone have experience doing the Northern Tier route in winter?

I am very experienced cycling and camping in sub-zero conditions, but I can't bike on a highway with a shoulder full of snow. I'm trying to gauge what kind of roads I'd be on during a route like this to decide if it's foolish to attempt (I can wait until spring, but a mid-winter "Northern Tier" adventure sounds grand to me)

Thanks for any and all info,
Max

Edit: I know several roads close for the winter. Not sure if there's workarounds.

Can't speak directly to your question, as I don't have much experience out west but here in New England and I would tend to think in most parts of the country within a day or two after a snow storm passes through the shoulders are clear. Heck from the experience I had last winter as long as you are on dry snow you can still ride on the shoulder with 2-3 inches of UNPACKED/PLOWED snow...just don't get on the plowed pavement or you'll find yourself losing control quickly. I wasn't using studded tires, just regular Bontrager 700x25 T2s. I use them year round and they handle 'dry'(cold temp) snow quite well as long as you stay on the snow. On the wet pavement...forget it. As long as you are willing to sit out a day or two you shouldn't have any trouble most anywhere you go unless a real major dumping occurs. You're probably better off up north than you would be down south where they don't have the plowing/salting/sanding capabilities they have up north. Your biggest problem area...guessing on the route(I believe the Northern Tier may be the one that follows US20 through NY) your talking about would be in the northwest/north central NY area...Buffalo/Rochester/Syracuse(lake effect snow country). That area can get hit and it won't stop for quite a period of time(3, 4 heck even 5 straight days of snow at times when the wind is coming right across the Great Lakes). Everywhere else around the country you would normally be talking only a day or so of snowfall to deal with.

Good info. The northeast is my home country too so I know our roads are manageable. It's past the Great Lakes that i'm in unfamiliar territory. I will have to get through Buffalo somehow, but I'm not necessarily afraid of sitting still for a week for something major to pass through. I can catch up on work in a local coffeeshop.

My bike is ready; I've got a disc brake in the front, and i'm running 700x35 in the back and 700x32 in the front. My touring weight is under 20-25 pounds with food and water and it's well balanced.

I've done the Northern Tier in the summer. I can't think of many roads that wouldn't get plowed in the winter. Maybe Logans pass and parts of Glacier NP, just go around it. Can't say I envy the thought of riding across the plains states in winter, ugh, good luck with that.

It would be a real challenge. Good luck!

Many of our mountain passes get over 20 feet of snow annually. The buildup from the snowplows create vertical walls on the edge of the roads that are 15+ feet high. The Cascades can be a real challenge in the winter, even in a 4 wheel drive truck! ODOT uses vulcanic cinders to "sand" the roads. A layer of this builds up on the shoulders on many of the state's roads in the winter. This pumice- like abrasive is really hard on bikes. It also makes it very difficult to tell where the shoulder is located.

I aborted a tour in March on Highway 26, near the base of Mt Hood. The road had a 12' perpendicular wall of snow on the shoulder, it was melting onto the road, getting dark, and the ski areas had just closed for the day. I calculated the odds of making it to Portland, about 50 miles away and the end of my tour, in one piece. I didn't like the odds so I called my wife, and told her that I would buy her dinner if she picked me up.

I can't imagine Washington's moutain passes being any better.

Taken on July 4th

https://www.marktanner.com/bike/bikenews.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...nada-in-Winter

The North Cascades Highway west of Winthrop will be closed and impassible to Diablo. Same with Logan Pass in Glacier National Park. Alternate to the former is Steven's Pass. Alternate to the latter is Marias Pass. Both are U.S. 2. Part of Chief Mountain Highway will also be closed.

The plains have high winds that really cause a nuisance to drivers, probably riders too. On most of the freeways there are railroad style gates to remotely close the road in case of snow storms and white outs. In MN, there is a $700 fine for driving beyond a closed gate. Living in MN, I can say that storms should be respected and can be life threatening.

I lived and cycled in Winnipeg and central Alberta for 18 years ... yes, they are a little bit further north than where you're thinking of going, but some of the temperatures and conditions are very similar to what you could experience as you hit Minnesota and start making your way westward.

I know you say you've cycled and camped in sub-zero conditions ... but have you done that in temps as low as -20C, -30C, or -40C? I have cycled in those temps. Things freeze up in those temps. I've commuted by bicycle in temps as low as -40C/F, and here's my story I did with a starting temperature of -32C/-25F.
https://www.machka.net/brevet/Coldest_Century.htm


Here's a road in the middle of Manitoba on a bitterly cold winter day ...



And a beautiful Alberta road, early on a frosty morning ...

Touring should be fun. Doesn't sound like much fun or very safe either. Different strokes, I guess.

That is awesome to get to that weight. I'm less than that in FLorida, but how the heck do you do that for cold temps.?

Experience.

Just for everyone's info, I give it about a 10% chance that I actually attempt this. The thread is a fishing expedition to find other people's accounts of the trip. I will put down the money for the equipment I don't already own.

Coldest I've ridden in is -27ºC. Coldest I've slept in is about -30ºC

Their is a simple answer to your question but you won't like it since it doesn't follow standard protocol used by the clothing industry.

20-40% of the calories you consume go to moving you forward on the bike, the remaining 60-80% of the calories you consume go to producing heat. Do you see a problem here? I do.

You have to get rid of the heat or your going to overheat and start sweating. Sweat has another name...evaporative cooling. If you don't want to be come colder, than stay dry. Don't worry about staying warm...you'll stay warm as long as you stay dry. You have to get rid of the heat that your body is producing. The clothing industry who is in the business of selling clothing tells you that you need to trap that body heat and wick away the moisture. You need to buy their fleece, wool, etc. BS. I don't wear anything like that until it gets down to 0 F unless their is strong(20-30) mph winds. With strong winds I'll add extra layers on starting around the 10-15 degree F area. Otherwise I ride in cycling shorts, single layer nylon pants. Up top is pretty much the same. I wear a long sleeve Duofold zip up turtle neck pullover. This is a lightweight top, about the thickness of cycling shorts. Over top that I put what would normally be thought of as a spring/fall nylon coat. It is a two layer nylon coat, both layers are nylon. The outer layer is pretty much ripped to shreds so I wear it inside out. I wear merino wool socks I bought at Walmart in the hunting dept with neoprene booties. I wear ragged wool pop top mittens. A skiers fleece ear band keeps the ears nice and warm and I wear ski googles to keep the eyes from watering madly on me. I don't put anything else on until it gets down to 0 F unless its windy. Wednesday and Thursday this week I rode into the library in the AM to get online, 38 F on Wednesday and 40 on Thursday. I haven't put any wind pants on yet this fall. I've only been riding in cycling shorts. I'm letting my body adjust/acclimate to winter riding right now while winter is moving in. I've had a couple of nights recently where I rode home in a tshirt and shorts and it was only 42 F. Learn to let the body keep you warm...not the clothing. The clothing should be dissipating the heat, not trapping it. If you have to remove layers of clothing while riding...you should never have put them on if the first place. I never remove clothing while riding. I'll add extra clothing...rarely, but I never remove clothing. Their isn't anything to remove.

As a result of carrying less clothing you carry less weight. The heaviest stuff he is probably carrying is food and water. Right now without trying to hard I could be carrying 20-25 pounds without food and water and still have a lot of crap with me I don't need. I couldn't do it mid winter. I only have a 32 degree down bag. I have thought about doing some winter bike camping this winter with an upgrade to the sleeping bag...time shall tell. I know the camping options will change quite dramatically from what I would use during the summer months, but around here I could still fluff it pretty easily. For summer weight I could probably get down to 15-20 quite easily, even carrying a days supply of food on me...then again if I was road touring I wouldn't need to carry a full days supply on me, only enough to get to the next town.

One change of clothes for night wear, one 0- -20F down sleeping bag, a decent 4 season tent, one man tent is all you need, you ??MIGHT?? even be able to pull it off during the winter with a bivy, the bivy would be warmer than a tent but the snow load would make it a bit interesting, cooking equipment...that's all you really need other than food and water. If you watch how you dress while you ride you won't even have to wash the bike clothes as often as you would during the summer months thanks to not sweating. It wouldn't be hard to do 20-25 pounds full loaded for winter weight. You do have to be prepared for the long winter nights though. They will take a lot of you mentally.

July 27, 2011-July 17, 2012 I rode at least 1 100 mile day every week in New Hampshire on the open roads. In January of 2012 I had two weeks in a row where I started the 100 milers with sub zero F temps. Neither week did it warm up above 20F during the day. IF you stay dry you will stay warm. Don't listen to the garbage the clothing manufacturers are trying to t/sell you. They make money off it, and you have a bunch of worthless clothing laying around your house that you won't wear because you hate the idea of winter biking so much. They win...you lose.

As a mountaineer as well as a cyclist, I'd be interested in seeing your packing list. It may give me some ideas of ways to lighten my climbing as well as my cooler weather cycling loads.

The coldest I've experienced climbing was -27C, and with any wind it was hard to do much without protection of all exposed skin.

Here's my winter packing list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FE&usp=sharing

If I did the Northern Tier, I would be adding the following:

1 pair of Insulated Pants
1 pair of Winter-Specific Cycling Shoes
1 windproof balaclava
1 TNF Simple Bivy (for snow shelters when extreme snowfall is likely)
Maybe.. Maybe a 45º MH Ultralamina for use inside the 15º. Last winter I went to -10ºF with a 20ºF by using a coat. I can sleep chilly and the "Extreme" range on my MH bag is like -18ºF
I should be able to fit it in the same 2 Ortliebs.


I also hate fenders, but for a Northern Tier trip, I'd probably add them for salt/sand.

Why do/did(not sure if it's still around or not) guys ride Iditabike(sp?). Sometimes it can be the different competitive environments...like you said different strokes for different folks.

Sometimes it can simply be the fact of knowing you can do it if you know what hits the fan and you have to do it. With the ways things are going on around the United States/world in this day and age...you better be prepared to be able to do anything...anytime of the year...under any circumstances. That's why I like winter riding. It preps me for the worse case scenario. Any wimp can ride their bike long distances during the summer months when the going is easy, but it takes a real person to do it during the winter months. You have to know your body and equipment. When everything goes you know where, you'll wish you did know how to get by without the television, the internet, the cellphone, electricity, the car, running water, heat in your house, etc. Could you do it...prove it.

I live by one simple motto, I don't know what/when crap may hit the fan but...I prepare and educate myself for it ahead of time.

Yeah, I'm a bit nervous about this winter. I was hoping to be down south this winter on a winter long bike trip/tour down south...away from the snow. I love riding in the cold. I would much rather ride in below freezing temps than above freezing temps. I don't want to see snow this winter. My balls are already bigger than my brains and that isn't a good sign. Hope I don't get my head crushed by a passing vehicle this winter during a snow storm.

I doubt many people have ever tried something like the NT during the winter so Max you could be one the first to do it. If you have the resources, moneywise, go for it. Prep yourself for when ***** hits the fan. Challenge yourself to do something a bit crazy. Normally the crazier something sounds the more you ought to do. The more outlandish it sounds the more you ought to go for it. When things get too commonplace that it's...oh well...then it's time to step up to a new plate and challenge yourself further.

Some people simply have the smarts to know their is an easy time to prepare and spend their time preparing/getting educated/experience with roughing it while others are to busy keeping up with the Joneses(not one Jones but multi Jones) and a result they know nothing. Which do you choose...wait til everything goes to he!! or prep now so you know how to do when the time comes.

Personally I'd add a down jacket, well worth the added comfort for an extra pound or so.

Forgetting all the *little* details of clothing, calories burned versus consumed, my big issue would be the road conditions would mostly suck.

Yes they plow, sometimes they plow the shoulders. A lot of times, especially west of Minnesota, it's windy, thus a lot of blowing snow. That in turn makes visibility sketchy and the concern would be cars and trucks not seeing you. As well, if the shoulders are marginal, you end up in the traffic lane and with mediocre visibility, you increase the likelihood of getting hit.

Then you end up stopping a lot while awaiting better riding conditions and you are stuck for a few days in towns with maybe one very mediocre restaurant and a motel with no internet and 3 TV channels.

Nope. Not for me.

Just keep in mind that when snow packs in between your fenders and tires, you can come to a very sudden halt. You'd want some good clearance.

I second the down jacket idea ... it won't be much extra weight at all. They are very light.

And my main concern would also be road conditions. Especially through the prairies ... sometimes they plow, sometimes they don't. Often they don't plow shoulders or the quiet country roads. And if they do plow the quiet country roads, they often plow them down to about 2 or 3 inches above the pavement ... more or less just pack and smooth the snow and ice into a thick layer all the way across the road.

As Steve B mentions, the wind is a factor and it can create some huge drifts that may have you off your bicycle walking (and lifting and carrying) to get through.

Another disadvantage of touring in the winter is the lack of daylight hours. If you are camping, that means 16 hours or so in your tent during the winter. The biggest enemy however is getting wet. Rather it be from your own sweat or slush on the road, getting wet when it's cold is not good, if you are camping and you get wet in winter, it will be really hard to dry off. The sun is also lower making visibility just that much harder. Then throw in snow blindness.

Not worried about some things.

Down jacket: I have the Arcteryx Atom SV. I will never carry down for extended trips. Synthetics are warm when wet and dry out faster. If **** hits the fan, I want synthetics.

Snow Blindness/Visibility/Daylight: Not too worried about this. I have polarized sunglasses and I can schedule in the miles. I like my tent.

Wind and road conditions: Absolutely worried about this. Machka's posts have been especially enlightening. Basically, leaving to "go do the northern tier" is pretty foolish. A better decision is to do a few shorter Northeast tours in midwinter, when I can be rescued by friends and family. I'll try out some different tires, some fenders, and try to get out on all of the sub-zero days. It doesn't get much more brutal than the White Mountains and Upstate NY in the winter, so the northeast will make a fine gauntlet with which to learn winter touring.

I do a lot of snowshoeing and winter backpacking, so I'm familiar with drying stuff out, melting snow, and warming extremities. I would say that if I left today, I'd do it with confidence, but I may have more "Type 2 Fun" than regular fun. That being said, adversity doesn't scare me. It's an adventure! If/when I do the Northern Tier, I hope it's as brutal as possible, since I'll be ready for that.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions

i did the northern tier east to west in summer and the southern tier in the winter from west to east.

on the southern tier i packed and used to good effect 1) down jacket 2) long underware tops and bottoms 3) gore-tex pants 4) rag wool hat 5) ragwool mittens 6) goretex over mittens (outdoor research) 7) leg warmers 8) lightweight fleece turtleneck 7) two pairs of socks and 8) regular biking shoes and shorts.

i also lived in denver, co. and commuted during the winter. i recall that riding on snow covered roads was difficult dangerous and slow.

oh, and i remember having my socks freeze outside my tent at a campsite along side lake st. marys in glacier national park. i think it was on july 4, 1981.

this is not meant to be discouraging, by all means go.

Shorter northeast tours sounds like a better idea.

With regard to the road conditions ... you could luck out and end up with beautiful roads ... or not. There is absolutely no way to predict that now and it could be difficult to predict even a few days in advance of when you'll be there.

And if the US is anything like Canada when it comes to clearing roads, the quality and speed of the clearing will vary widely from place to place.

Something else you might consider is setting off in late February/early March. By the time you get to the prairies, it might be early to mid-April and although there can still be blizzards right up till the middle of May or so, you'll have a much greater chance of finding clear roads to ride on. Then you might hit the mountains in early to mid-May and you'll have a greater chance of better weather conditions then.

I haven't read the entire thread so I hope this isn't too much of a repeat.
Obviously you'll have to be riding on plowed roads of some kind. You can get off road on packed trails with a fat tire bike. And if you want to ride on icy roads with a fat tire bike you can get studded tires. You can't do safe winter riding on icy roads without studded tires. Good studs like the Nokia 294 make riding on ice reasonably safe. But they aren't wide enough for deep snow for most people, and certainly not if you are loaded touring.
It's so very important anyone looking at this kind of thing have some experience in multi-day bike touring because your clothing list needs to be developed by your own experience in a particular temperature range. Shoes and boots in particular have to be able to be kept dry by incorporating vapor barrier booties and/or drying them out when necessary.
If you are experienced with winter camping you know how finely tuned your gear must be to the task at hand and you really can't have a hope of bringing the right gear without experience.
In my experience in winter riding on highways and smaller roads I would mention that one of the issues is simply passability. That is to say that you could be at such and such a place and over night it might snow a foot and a half. Well....you're not going anywhere until the roads are plowed, even if you're on a fat tire bike. Typically you might be stuck for a day until things get plowed well but you could be stuck for more than a day at a time. Were I planning something like this I would budget a significant amount for hotels or I would plan for the ability to camp for more than one day at a time when there was any potential for weather to close in.
Winter biking also has to take into account basic maintenance problem and being able to stay warm when doing road side repairs. That is a challenge in itself.
It sounds like a great challenge. Tough to pull off but I'm sure it's doable with enough planning, experience and money .