antokelly

Wow that sure would put you off going custom one disaster after another.is that guy still making bikes

tom cotter

The LHT has a track record backed up by thousands of threads. I guess as i read your post I'm trying to decide whether you are being sincere or just trying to take a cheap shot at an off the rack bike? Regardless, because the LHT has such a solid record, combined with the fact that you built up the bike yourself, then loaded it yourself, has me wondering if maybe you aren't pointing the finger at the wrong culprit? After-all, it's not like you bought a ready to ride bike, like an Americano, BG, Riv, or even a RTR LHT. You built this bike. How can you possibly blame the only component you didn't touch?

Jim Kukula

A shimmy is a tricky thing. Just changing tires can make a difference. I have a Thorn Nomad which is probably more high end than average... hard to say, really. There is the frame, the components, the build of the wheels. Anyway, I usually ride with a handlebar bag. I can easily ride no-handed for a longish distance. But if I take off the handlebar bag, it is a lot harder to ride no-handed. When I loaded the bike up for a camping trip, it rode just fine, but if I tried to go no-handed it would shimmy. I experimented a bit with the distribution of weight but never figured it out exactly.

MZilliox

Loving this bike. please do tell me what rack is fine enough to sit on the rear of this wonderful machine? Nitto r26? Bruce Gordon custom? Also curisous what size fenders and tires you slipped in there? full 32s?

fietsbob

Co Motion is Physically Made in Oregon, not Imported By a Oregon based company (with State Tax breaks) Thats NIKE.

Bike Friday is also manufactured , in Eugene, Portland Has a lot of custom builders..

Bruce Gordon Used to be in Eugene too, he moved Home and Shop to Petaluma..

DropBarFan

Have ridden various touring bikes incl Surly Disc Trucker, old Fuji, Novara Randonee & Cannondale T400. Many production tourers limit tire size which I don't like. Co-Motion has the right approach IMHO by including options for Gates belt/Rohloff & discs etc not to mention beefy frame design along with good tubing. Randonee & Trucker frames are darn heavy--of course while tourers need extra strength it seems like few production tourer mfg's source top-notch steel tubing. Whereas in the 70's/80's one could buy production road/light-touring bikes like Peugeot PX-10 or Gitane TDF that included Reynolds 531.

Co-Motion pretty expensive but equipping a more production-type model w/aftermarket goodies (Gates/Rohloff/couplers) is gonna run about 75% of the cost of Americano I think, so Co-Motion not that bad a deal really.

arctos

Quite a thread. Personal taste, direct experience, status mythology, marketing, group think and money are a potent mix in bicycle choice.

Long, long ago when I started commuting by bike I rode a $75 bottom end heavy Gitane road bike for many years. A friend loaned me his Swiss made Cilo road bike with a full Campagnolo Record group and a Reynolds 531 tube set. What a revelation! I immediately rode almost a century through the mountains without stopping. Compared to my $75 bike this one was light weight, responsive and just a joy to ride. Who knew? I certainly did not. Knowing what a higher end bike felt like gave me goal - a better bike. It took a six years to be able to reach this new goal. I selected a Swiss made (531 Reynolds) Mondia Special with a Campagnolo groupo. I started touring on this bike. It was wonderful and even better once I made the cranks into a triple. My only complaint was the roads I could not ride due to the limits of tire size.

Enter another bike friend. He loaned me a Ritchey prototype mountain bike years before they were released to the public. Again what a revelation. I could ride wherever i had the skill and strength to do so. And It weighed less than my touring bike. Once mountain bikes were available I tried several but was unhappy with their performance on pavement while touring.

In the late 80's I encountered the Bruce Gordon RNR. It combined the characteristics I wanted from a mountain bike and a touring bike. And i have been riding it ever since 26 years later on and off pavement including the Divide Ride.

This is a long winded way of saying ride what you have to learn what works best for you and then consider a higher end bike that suits those parameters and your budget.

Medic Zero

+1

Great info, many thanks!

tstege83

I just wanted to chime in here with my opinion which of course will appear biased to those who want to view it that way. I am an avid cyclist and have toured over 10,000 miles to date in the last 5 years and plan many more in the next few. I like all of us started out just randomly figuring out what worked for me in my daily riding and touring. That led me to a time brake 27 speed LHT with drop bars that I liked but not loved it eventually was stolen.

Enter new LHT with phil wood hubs rim brakes trekking bars Paul thumbies 26" wheels and lots of miles as a daily commuter and ultimate touring rig. It performed flawlessly in everything I needed for however at the end of my southern tier tour to key west I decided to sell it. I was able to put about 7000 miles on that rig custom built it cost me $2200 and I sold it for $1000 without the saddle or front rack. I never had a complaint and the guy who bought it did the divide ride on it and loved it.

But after that tour I had seen the pluses in disk brakes and had begun to yearn for a rohloff for more far flung adventures and just overall ease of maintenance on long rides. I have never and still never plan on wanting anything other than 26" wheels with 2" tires for touring and commuting effectively 30" diameter so not far off from a 700cc road wheel. I also had my mind set on a rohloff and disk brakes, something about the desire to stop a loaded bike and the cleanliness of disk and having a clean chain line.

This brought me to build a surly troll w/ rohloff with avid BB7's. This build was ok but it just never did it for me. The frame looked funny with it's sloped top tube and it never really seemed light a heavy duty touring rig like my lht. I did however love the rohloff. So after debating it I sold it. Nothing against the troll but I decided I wanted a more traditional touring frame without the horizontal dropouts or the MTB style frame. Also I hated the avid BB7's.

Next I waited for 4 months debating non stop on buying a 26" wheeled disk trucker frame $550 or a Comotion Pangea Frame made specifically for a Rohloff $2000. After investigating it and constantly changing my mind I decided I really did not want a chain tensioner and I liked a few things Comotion offered (stainless dropouts, rohloff specific frame, routing for cables, dynamo specific front fork so no need for a wire attached to the hub it transfers thru the stainless drop out, eccentric BB to keep a clean chain line, amazing paint job, and over built fork). They also extended my head tube for me. Overall the frame cost me $2500 but it is all the very specific things that made me choose it.

Now that I have the Pangea built I can honestly say for me the roughly extra $1900 I spent on the frame was worth it. Again on the LHT I would not have stainless dropouts, eccentric BB, or the dynamo specific fork. Also this frame weighs roughly 2#s less than an LHT and has thicker tubing. If surly made the LHT with an eccentric BB or horizontal BB I would have chose the LHT and saved my $$$ and just got a new frame every 5 years however they don't.

The ride of the pangea is absolutely worth it and the way my build was finished makes it a flawless touring bike. However a surly LHT with a rohloff and chain tensioner would probably not much different maybe a little heavier and without the finishes I mentioned above. I went with 36 hole black rohloff, 36 hole son dynamo, cliffhangers, spyre disk brakes which are far better than the Avids IMO, SKF BB, and other random bits.

Next up I am building my wife a surly LHT with the exact specs of my bike it will have a chain tensioner and a phil front hub but every other part will be identical so we can tour together and carry less spare parts. Also I will have good lighting on my bike so she will not need a dynamo and I can charge her lights on my USB revolution charger.

I hope this post has been helpful as I have spent hundreds of hours pondering all of these things and there never will be a right answer. In the end I figured it's not hard to sell any of these frames and take a
Small loss so I went for the Pangea and am happy I did. I will try and post more updates in the coming months about the Pangea as I know there is limited info and also more on the wife's once we are touring together.

fietsbob

Field 02., overspending on exotic components , if you break stuff on the road small town shops wont stock replacements..

then you wait for special orders to make it there.

Rohloff has a long history of reliability , thats an exception ..

im more speaking of Campagnolo, etc. None in local shop, (locals dont have that kind of $)

though, Here, a call to the next 'big' town bike-shop down the coast , is worked out ,
and they order stuff overnight shipped

and its there by the time the rider gets there a couple days later.

Mid line Shimano is a better bet, as that is what the price point most people buy. in smaller towns ,
(not including the Wally World customer , but actual bike shops)
so service parts get ordered.

cyber.snow

As someone who is just entering the touring bike sport, this thread has been really informative and my thanks to all of you who contributed to it. Currently I am just starting to stretch my legs on a Felt V85 and giving a lot of thought about going from credit card touring to camping and carrying a heavier load. In my noob mind this means upgrading my bike to more of a touring bike configuration. Now, while I like the V85, it does not fit me like a glove as I have a long upper torso and very short legs. I was thinking of upgrading to either a TREK or Surly product, simply based on the different threads I have read on them. But now I am thinking that I probably should spend the money to have an expert "fit me". Is there a way/place that I can go and have someone do all the measurements or whatever (sorry, am a noob remember) and tell me what geometry would work best for my build? Typically the LBS in my area don't even carry the touring bikes and if they do, a quick spin out in the parking lot is not the same as a doing a century on the bike to see if it "fits". To tell the truth, I have spent too much money in the past two years buying bikes that I thought fit well and then selling them on Craig's list because they just didn't work on longer rides. I really don't want to spend the $6-7K for my next bike but would like to get a bike that I can keep and ride for a decade or so and be happy....or am I just day dreaming? How does a total noob get started down this path? Do I go to someone like Bruce Gordon, comotion or bike friday and pay to be fitted...heck do they even do that?

lurch0038

Do a search on the internet for a shop that will do a custom fit and then they should be able to put you into a bike that closely matches your geometry. Do not get a basic fit, some of the fitting sessions take 3 or more hours to complete. Dont buy a bike and then try to fit into it....get the fitting first then buy the bike. If there isnt a bike frame that closely matches your geometry then it may be best to have a custom frame built but I doubt you wont be able to find a frame.

If you are a newbie wait until you can understand the differences in price because for the most part you can find a high quality frame at a decent price.

Once you have the frame then you can add all of the top quality components.

tarwheel 

Interesting discussion in this thread, if you have the time to read it all. A lot simply boils down to how much money someone is willing to spend on a bike, and the perceived value in their choices. To add my personal experiences, I have three touring bikes -- one of them production (Soma Saga), one of them small-scale production (Bob Jackson World Tour) and one fully custom (Waterford RST-22). All three of my bikes have similar quality components, generally Ultegra-level Shimano.

I bought the Bob Jackson frame and fork new direct from England, but it is "off the peg" and not custom. I got it for commuting and have ridden a few loaded tours on it. The frame has a lot of old-school class and charm, but the frame construction and paint is a little sloppy in spots -- although certainly not bad considering its cost ($600). It is a great frame for commuting and light touring, but I have found it wobbly and not stiff enough for loaded touring unless the weight is carefully distributed between the front and back. It also does not have clearance for tires larger than 32 mm with fenders.

After several loaded tours on the BJ, I bought a Soma Saga frame and fork for my dedicated touring bike. The quality of construction and finish are outstanding, particularly for a frame and fork that cost only $500 new. The frame is designed and constructed much better for loaded touring than BJ, with larger diameter tubing, longer chain stays, a taller head tube and more clearance for larger tires and fenders. It is rock solid when loaded with panniers, and distributing the weight front to rear is not so critical for handling. For the money, the Saga is an incredible value and all that I need in a touring frame. The geometry fits me perfectly.

My Waterford is a fully custom frame, but I bought it used. Fortunately, it fits me perfectly and I wouldn't change hardly a spec if ordering one new. This is simply the best bike I have ever owned. The quality of construction and finish are outstanding, although it could use a new paint job after 10 years and thousands of miles riding. The Waterford handles and rides better than any bike I have owned. It has clearance for larger tires and fenders, mounts for fenders and racks, and canti brakes. It was not designed for heavy loaded touring, yielding a much more compliant ride than my full touring bikes, but it could easily handle rear panniers with a fairly light load (eg, 20-25 lbs). As much as I love this bike, I could not afford to buy one new. A new Waterford identical to mine would cost more than $3,500, which is much more than I could justify spending on a frame and fork. However, I bought it used for only $600, so it was an incredible value that I was lucky to stumble across. I am considering having it repainted by Waterford at some point, and it would cost me more to have it refinished than I paid for it!

Bottom line: You can buy an excellent touring bike for a reasonable amount of money that will more than satisfy any ones needs. However, if you have the money to spend on a custom frame, you can certainly improve upon the appearance, quality of construction and fit of a production bike. If you find a used custom bike that fits you for a reasonable price, jump on it!

Yan 

I started touring on a Surly Cross Check, built up from the frame myself. When it got run over by a car, I salvaged what parts I could and ordered a custom fillet brazed frame from True North Cycles in Ontario. The difference between the $3200 frame and the $450 frame are as follows:

1. S&S couplings, which make travelling easier. I'm based in Asia now where airlines do not charge fees for bicycles, so I'm not saving money. I do enjoy being able to carry the bike in a backpack case.
2. Noticeably stiffer frame. The Cross Check was noodly when loaded.
3. No shimmy on downhills. The Cross Check had a light shimmy, nothing to worry about, but I do feel more confident on the new bike.
4. No toe overlap with fenders.
5. Better fit. I had issues with wrist pain on the old bike, especially at the beginning of tours. I can ride day after day on the new bike with no discomfort.
6. Dynamo wiring through fork leg, frame pump lug, third bottle cage.

Were these benefits worth the extra money? No. S&S couplings are available on mass production frames. Frame stiffness, shimmy, and toe overlap should not be an issue on most dedicated touring frames. Any properly sized bike and be made to fit with the correct stem choice. The accessory doodads are minor conveniences.

I'm still happy I bought the custom frame. It's about pride of ownership. Nothing beats mass production in bang for the buck. The industrial revolution is a great thing. I wouldn't advise most casual tourers to buy a custom frame.

Don_in_VA

My timing for reading this thread is interesting...at least to me.<g> I've been riding bikes since I was about 8 (64 now). As a teenager I knew I loved riding my English 3 speed, more than most of my friends. After learning to drive my interest in biking became more casual until about 20 years ago when my interest got a bit more serious. Now retired I'd like to do some more serious touring and I'm trying to figure out what's important. I also happen to be reading a book called "Being Wrong" which discusses topics like this which are based largely on opinions, aesthetic considerations, and personal preferences rather than on agreed upon quantitative measures.

From this discussion I can see that getting a bike fit that fits me should be my top criteria. Of course getting any clarity on what constitutes a proper fit seems a tad fuzzy even though there's a whole section (that I'm wading through) devoted to this issue. When I hit my local bike shops the top two criteria seem to be stand over height and my height...which doesn't seem right to me. I know from experience my hands go numb after 30 minutes or so on my mountain bike (fitted by a local bike shop that I think is one of the better ones in the area). These are the same guys that sold me a road bike about a size larger a year later. My hands don't go numb but my lower back usually knows when I've ridden the bike more than 15 or 20 miles.

I'm no expert on the subject of fitting a bike but it seems to me there are a number of related factors necessary to get my butt, shoulders, knees, and feet oriented in a manner that's comfortable (long term), efficient, and allows me to stand for climbs, crouch for speed, and assume some sort of 'normal' position for most of my riding where nothing goes numb (particularly my hands and sex organs). My biggest question that no one seems to wants to answer (or perhaps can answer) is how adjustable is the fit of a bike? Obviously the seat and handle bars can be raised or lowered. Seat position can be moved a forward and backward a bit and I assume the hardware attaching the handlebars can be changed to move them fore and aft some. I'm guessing (and I do mean guessing) that the closer the fit the better and with a custom bike you'd get close to perfect from the get-go...but with a decent mass produced bike is getting close good enough so you can tweak it on your own to get close to perfect?

Once I've got a bike that fits me then there only seem to be two or three things left of any real significance. One item appears to be the tubing used (brand, alloy, and shape/size) and that affects the quality of the ride. Another item would be the components used and it would seem that here too changes could be made before or after a purchase. The choice of components appears to have a bearing on both durability and the feel (speed and smoothness of shifting for example). Lastly, there would be the custom braze ons to get everything you want exactly where you want it. This does not look like its something that's practically changeable.

At this point, my primary question is, do I have a decent understanding of the issues surround buying a touring bike and making my decision between a custom touring bike and a mass produced (I don't care for the "average" description used in the heading) touring bike? ...and if I stepped on anyone's toes by offending your sensibilities regarding what's important, chalk it up to my ignorance and at least try not to take it personally.

Yan 

Regarding fit:

There are really only two things that have to be positioned: the saddle and the bars.

The bottom bracket is the starting point of everything. The saddle is the first thing to be fit. Most people use the old knee-over-pedal-spindle method. There are arguments that it is only an approximation, but I've used it for years and have had great success. Since I remove my saddle for packing and I travel frequently with my bike, this fit step is something which I repeat often. The process is as follows:

1. Set your saddle height so that when your pedal is at the bottom position and your knee joint is locked, the sole of your foot is paralle to the ground.
2. Move your pedal to the forward-horizontal position. Take a plum bob off your knee. Adjust your saddle fore aft position until the line passes through the pedal splindle.
3. Check your saddle height setting again in case it has changed.

For time trial bikes, the knee should be forward of the spindle; for mountain bikes, the knee should be backward from the spindle. I don't ride these disciplines so I don't have the numbers memorized.

Once the saddle is positioned, your lower body fit is fixed. Only your arms are left. There is no correct position for the bars. Your setting will depend on your fitness, speed, and preference. Generally, the lower your bars, the shorter the stem. High level cyclists will want bars which are lower and more forward than casual cyclists. Bicycle tourists usually prefer high bars. The bars on my touring bike are just slightly below the saddle. The bars on my road bike are 10 cm lower than my saddle.

To summarize, the saddle position is based on the bottom bracket, and the bar position is based on the saddle. Pretty much any manufacturer's frame, when reasonably sized, can be made to fit any cyclist with the correct choise of stem. Frames are traditionally sized by the seat tube length, but the more relevant dimension is the top tube length. When the frame size deviates enough that an especially long or short stem is required, handling become compromized.

You should consult a competent fitting professional if you purchase a mass produced frame. If you opt for a custom, your builder should take care of this for you. If none are available in your area, use one of the available online calculators to determine your frame size. Leave your steerer uncut. Once your frame is built, start with the bars slightly below the saddle, and experiment with stem lengths until you achieve a comfortable position. The problem I see the most often is people riding handlebars which are too far forward. This leads to hand, back, and neck pain.

MichaelW

Touring bikes don't benefit from ultra-light (steel) tubing in the same way as race bikes. You need sturdy tubes to fix racks, and deal with the dings and knocks of life on the road, esp in transit.
High-end components are rarely optimized for touring.
A good solid bike that weighs what it needs to, but no more, is ideal.

Some of my best tours have been on cheap rental hybrid bikes.

cyber.snow

As "another Noob" to touring, I have been trying to figure out whether to invest the ~$5K in a custom bike or buy one of the mass produced products and ride it. When I compare geometries of several bike frames, I am finding that the fits are within mm of each other, so it seems that the "fit" could be adjusted by shifting position of the saddle and handlebars without a lot of trouble...as long as you started with the right size frame. When I narrow down my choices there is a huge span of dollars between the two ends. On one side, there is the TREK 520 which is currently on sale for around $1300 and on the other side is the Bruce Gordon which will cost right at around $5K for a finished bike. While there does seem to be differences between the quality of parts, is Deore quality adequate for a touring bike? Also, is there a way to tell if you will be able to fit fenders and racks on a bike? Also how do you tell if there is enough space to run 28-42mm tires? I am sure that a lot of you are going to think "elemental, my dear Watson", but it is all greek to me.

AlaskaStinson

One criteria I looked at before getting my Disc Trucker was availability of parts. The more you customize with ultra high end parts, the harder to replace them when all you have is a Walmart for the next 100 miles. I did a lot of upgrades, but I can still default to standard stuff. 700c not 650s, Cable BB7 brakes, not hydraulic etc. I keep is standard and bullet proof.

I am fortunate to have average body proportions, so my Trucker fits. If it didn't I would be looking at something like a CoMotion.

elcruxio

KOPS is dead and everybody knows it. There is absolutely no science behind it and everyone should do just what feels right. If you experience pain in the front of the knee, move your saddle a bit backwards or up or both, if in the back of the knee, move the seat a bit forward or down or both and also keep in mind the weight balance on the bike needs to be in order. Basically on a long distance touring rig it's essential that one has the seat back enough to support the upper body so that not too much weight is distributed on the hands.

Saddle position is mainly based on balance of weigth distribution and potential core support. Bottom bracket plays a role on that sure, but not in any way like knee over pedal spindle.

tarwheel 

If you are new to touring, why spend $5,000 on a bike? That makes no sense at all. You might not like touring. Or you might decide that you need another size frame. Plus, don't forget that you will also need to spend money on racks, panniers and other gear. Trust me, a decent production bike like a Trek 520, Soma Saga, Surly LHT or Jamis Aurora will get the job done -- in style. If you later find that you really like touring and would like a nicer bike, you should be able to sell the less expensive bike easily, and put that money toward your dream bike. Of, if you buy something like a Soma Saga with good to high-quality components, you could later buy a custom frame and just swap parts from the old bike to the new one.

elcruxio

Just go with the right sized Trek 520. My SO just got one, and as the designated mechanic I'm constantly baffled by all of the small nifty features found on the bike. There's just too many to list and many of those are stuff I have no idea about. In another thread steel was discussed and to be honest, if the high end frame you're buying is chromoly steel, you won't get any true benefit out of a custom (Comotion for example)
Chromo is chromo. If you manage to score a stainless frame with over 30mm tube diameter, zone butted tubes and minimum of 0.6mm butts, then go for it. Otherwise you'll probably be good enough on a standard frame.

Now if you want to fit something custom or special on the frame like Pinion or Rohloff, then it's another matter entirely. But if you want to run components that can be found around the world as standard (7-9 speed Shimano) then a mass produced frame is going to be good enough.

Seriously I don't see the point in high end touring frames, especially when they are not truly high end. WHEN the frame breaks on you you'll not get a replacement easily. If it's a standard basic thing, chances are you can order an identical replacement or get something else your parts will fit on.

cyber.snow

After reading this thread about 4 times, I am convinced that I shouldn't be spending a great deal of money on my first touring bike. After calling around, I can find places that sell TREK 520 Discs and Surly Disc Truckers, not found anyone that actually has a Soma Saga in stock or Jamis Aurora available to even look at. So I will just focus on the two that I can find. I ran the geometries and find that the bikes are almost identical..maybe some changes in the mm range, but no big differences (they could be substantial, but I am not smart enough to know how much some of these small differences make). Also I don't see a lot of difference in the drive trains, etc on the two bikes. The bikes were originally priced very close and that makes a lot of sense. But now there is a TREK sale in my area and I can get the 520 for about $1200 vs $1600 for the Surly. Is there something that I am missing? Will both bikes run a wide range of tires? 28mm-42mm?? I realize that the 54Cm Trek has 700C wheels and the 52CM Surly has 26" wheels. What I am trying to understand is if there is a difference between the two bikes that would be worth the additional cost of the Surly??? Sorry in advance for more noob questions and for going out of thread on this....

DropBarFan

520 Disc seems like it has pretty decent components, Surly Disc Trucker's components seem roughly the same. Maybe Surly costs more mostly due to popularity? I still see some 520's on the bike path but seems like half of tourists are riding LHT's. I don't see any specific info re widest tire for 520 Disc but for prev 520's people say 38 mm about the widest tire, maybe 40. I'm using Ritchey Tom Slick 1.5" (38 mm) on Disc Trucker; pretty light but wide enough for semi-cushy ride. I'm not sure why folks would want a narrower tire for loaded touring unless route was pretty smooth. Disc Trucker takes up to ~50 mm tires. On bumpy roads those wide tires can be 3X more comfortable than 32/35 mm tires & some can be inflated to 70 lbs for smooth parts.

On the other hand it's a bit ironic that bikes with harsher rides usually only bother me on local rides. Bike paths can be bumpy but many touring areas have fairly smooth roads.

tstege83

I would say to the several new people looking to get starting in touring take your time picking a bike. Do not go into the higher end stores and let them sell you a high end road bike because they don't have steel touring rigs in stock. The surly LHT is very popular and you should be able to get properly fitted to one or find someone to let you try one out. They run a little big in the top tube but you really cannot beat the price on these or similar frames. I think rather than having a custom frame made for first time touring it is much more important to choose the correct style of handle bars (drops vs touring flat style) and having a custom wheel set made. Those two things will provide you with the most comfort and piece of mind possible.

Also really think about wheel size 26" vs 700cc and brake type disk vs pads. With the LHT now available in 26" disk version you have a $500 frame that does what most high end companies like comotion which I own charge over $2000 for. You could very easily then buy all of the perfect parts you want and have a semi custom bike for under $2500 that will last just as long. Again I landed on my custom pangea mostly because the desire to run a clean rohloff setup and son dynamo setup. If I was not running these I would be on a surly disk trucker w/ 26" hand built wheels and an old school 8spd drivetrain with touring bars and bar end shifters mounted to Paul thumbies. It is a bomb proof commuter touring setup.