nemeseri

Does it really matter that you are on a flat course or an incline if you are in the proper power zone?

I really care about my climbing performance, but longer uninterrupted climbs aren't very close to me. So I train on the flats whenever it comes to anything longer than a 12 min interval. The point of the training is to improve my FTP. Am I going to improve in climbing even if I train on the flats? It's much easier to control my power and rest intervals on long uninterrupted flats, than climbs.

Machka 

Speaking from the perspective of someone who did most of her cycling in Manitoba where overpasses were the big hills, but where we had a lot of wind ...

-- Riding on flat ground and improving your overall fitness is better than nothing.

-- Riding into a fairly strong wind on flat ground can simulate a long gradual (like maybe 3%) grade hill.

-- Intervals can kind of simulate short slightly steeper hills.

-- Overpass repeats can also simulate short slightly steeper hills.

But when the hills get longer and steeper, there's a whole different thing that comes into play ... so much more leg strength and lung strength needed, as well as strategy and technique.

I now live in Tasmania where just about all the roads are on longer and steeper hills ... and wind training and intervals only get me so far.

wolfchild

If you want to be a good strong climber then you need to practice riding hills...Once you become good at climbing hills, dropping few pounds will make it even easier.

nemeseri

But... But... If my prescribed workout conists for example 3x15 min @ FTP, why does it matter to do it on a grade instead of flat roads? It's much easier to keep a steady power on flat than on a variable grade.

Machka 

Have you ever climbed a fairly long, fairly steep hill?

There's a whole lot more than just "steady power" that goes on in order to get yourself up one of those things.

Carbonfiberboy 

Because the speed on a climb is less, there's less inertia and that changes pedaling mechanics and thus muscle use. You're also in a slightly different position, though that's less important. Your cadence is also likely not to be freely chosen. Also because you're going more slowly, there's less cooling wind so it's harder to get rid of heat.

Dave Cutter

+1 You need [to practice on] the hills to develop strategy and technique.

gregf83 

You're correct in that you don't need to train on hills to be a good climber. Hills, if available, are generally convenient places to be able to ride steadily without interruption but there a plenty of other ways to ride without interruption. If you can ride on the flats at 4W/kg you'll be able to ride hills at 4W/kg. Provided you have the right gearing the forces on the pedals are the same. The only difference is the intertial load at the cranks is lower while climbing or on a trainer.

Most people who ride a trainer consistently can get their power up to similar levels they generate outdoors provided they have sufficient cooling.

Most of my riding is on the flats during the year with only short (<5min) hills. A few time a year I'll do a hill climb and don't have any problem riding at threshold power. In fact, I generally use the power I generate on a 1 hr hill as my FTP. I rarely do a solid 1 hr ride at FTP on the flats.

So yes you are guaranteed to improve your climbing performance if you increase your threshold power/weight ratio on the flats. I find 6x5x1 intervals at 105-108% of FTP (6 - 5min intervals with 1 min rest between intervals) effective for raising FTP. No hills required

edit: I have no idea what strategy and technique are required on a hill. I just ride at a steady power and it seems to work out fine. Make sure you have low enough gearing to ride at 90-100 RPM even if your preferred cadence is lower. Grades are not constant so you need some flexibility in gearing.

last edit: Interesting case study on training for a hill climb: https://www.ccbracing.com/content/mt-...imb-case-study by Cameron Cogburn winner of Mt Washington hill climb.

RChung

You're in SF and you're not near uninterrupted climbs?

Climbing is about watts/kg. You can increase your watts and decrease your kg even if you only ride a trainer in your basement.

Descending is different. It's hard to learn how to descend quickly and safely without actual descending, and it's hard to do actual descending without actual climbing.

[Edited to add:] A friend has a friend who was the captain of a container ship that traveled between China and the West Coast. He got a Computrainer and pedaled his way across the Pacific, many times. My friend says his friend was a killer on the climbs but couldn't descend for crap.

nemeseri

Probably I wasn't clear what I meant. Sorry about it. While I agree that if you race up hills you need strategy and you need to make yourself ready to accelerate and change pace instantly. Also if you want to hit a PR on a long-long mountain, then you can use different power zones for different sections. But I was asking about training. Why would it be different to put down 250 W on an incline, or on a flat road?

Yes. This is what I was thinking about. On the other hand I would love to see some sort of study or paper on this. My cadence is usually freely chosen on a climb too. Have you ever meet someone who let's say had 280W FTP on flat (and trained on flat), but wasn't able to produce a very close power wattage during climbing?

I'm really glad that you understood my question and linked to that page. It's very-very interesting. I hope you are right and I'd surprise if it was otherwise. For example why would anyone get a trainer if it doesn't help you to improve in climbing?

Well my closest uninterrupted climb that's longer than 12 min is Mount Tam 1 hour away from me. It would be a nice workout to ride up there 4 times a week.
And we agree on the descending part.

Machka 

Because it can help you maintain fitness through the winter months, and might even help you increase speed on flat ground by doing intervals.


Have you tried it?

Carbonfiberboy 

My experience is that I get better at climbing by climbing. Riding hard on the flat is good too, but to me, climbing is a little different. Were that not so, coaches would not recommend doing hill repeats, nor would training regimens for big climbing rides include a lot of climbing. I don't ride with a PM, but my guess from watching my performance change with training is that riding hills improves my watts on the flat more than riding flats does. How many hills we ride certainly has an effect on our performance. Can we get that same performance increase on hills without riding them? Good question.

If you google "how to improve climbing cycling" or some similar string, you'll get articles telling you to go out and climb, though of course doing intervals on your trainer or the flat will improve your climbing if you aren't doing them already.

caloso

It can be done. I trained for the Mt. Diablo Challenge almost exclusively on flat roads. You're right that the main thing that matters is increasing your FTP. To increase the numerator I did a lot of 2x20's and 6x5's. I would do them into the wind, sitting up on the bars, in a really big gear to simulate the high force/low cadence grind up the hill. Probably more important was reducing the denominator: for 6 weeks no cake, cookies, fries, chips, soda, candy, pie, ice cream. You get the idea.

Still, if you have the time, it's probably worth an occasional BART ride to visit Diablo or the 3 Bears.

Machka 

That is my experience as well.

There isn't much of a difference when the grade is low. Like I mentioned, if the grade is up to maybe about 3%, it's very similar to riding into the wind.

Grades between about 3% and about 9% are a little bit different from riding on flat ground, but riding hard on flat ground, doing intervals, etc. would probably reduce that difference.

For me, when grades get over 10%, there is a big difference. For me, climbing steep hills requires something else entirely, and I'm not quite sure what that is. Really strong legs help. Good core and upper body strength helps too. And a good power to weight ratio.

Dave Cutter

I wasn't thinking about "racing strategy" or "racing technique" ether. Just regular old climbing while riding.

The hills I know... I've learned where/when to shift and where/when I can give it my all and still be confident that I don't run out of guts and endurance before I run out of hill. On hills I don't know... hills that are new to me... I do a bit of gray-matter calculating and guess (based on previous experience). I reevaluate as I climb and readjust my effort as I deem necessary.

If you can do all that on flat ground with a wattmeter... good for you. I wouldn't have guessed that would have been possible.

gregf83 

If you ride the hill with a powermeter, or are able to ride with a reasonably steady power output, it really takes any technique out of it. You just keep your power level constant and that will be the fastest way up the hill. Training with a powermeter is helpful for helping to ride with a steady pace.

Dave Cutter

Well.... that would be just fragging AWESOME! So if I buy a power meter.... I won't get exhausted or winded climbing up the big hills that surround the area where I live?!?!? And I'll be able to climb with the same effort as I use when on level ground? They must be amazing devices!

Will I still need to use gears... or will I be able to use a single speed?

gregf83 

Is that surprising? Of course if you're not used to putting out much effort you'll be slow

Dave Cutter

So... nothing will change.

79pmooney

There is one thing no one has mentioned yet that doesn't translate as well between flat ground riding and hill climbing. Riding out of the saddle. For some of us, that is a core element of climbing. And my position standing while climbing is quite different from any position I use on the flat. (Not quite true. Standing but in the drops is something I do on the fix gear into the wind as well as climbing into a headwind. But that is a special case.)

I do probably fully half of my climbing out of the saddle, sometimes a lot more.

Ben

Drew Eckhardt 

Sometimes it doesn't provided you don't run out of gears. Since moving to California where hills aren't close enough to my home/office for weekday rides, before crashing I rode all my intervals outside on flat ground and had no problem delivering the same power on actual climbs when I cared to. It works at lower cadences on climbs too - 10-15 RPM slower feels natural with the reduced inertial load, and power doesn't seem to suffer down to 60.

OTOH, some people may be more limited by the reduced inertial load up-hill just as some have lower power output on trainers presumably for the same reason once cooling is taken care of.

Absolutely.

OldTryGuy

Currently 65 and I have been standing AND applying brakes at the same time on the flats ever since moving to SW FL in 1986 and it is very similar to climbing. Light feather for lesser elevation change, harder feather for higher % climb. The core workout can be brutal.

Riding Six Gab on Sunday and will see how this flatlander older man does.

RShantz

Watts are watts. Yes there can be a mental aspect, but in climbing it's mainly about w/kg. I've ridden big charity rides/fondos in the NC mountains with 100'/mile of climbing and people from the coast do just fine but they are strong and light.

Get your w/kg over 4 for an hour and you'll be OK. The one thing I've noticed is that on certain long climbs with short, steep sections (15-20% grade) I do have issues b/c I haven't trained enough with low cadence. I can put out over 4 w/kg with a cadence of 90-100, but I find if I have to go down to 60-70 for a while it decreases my average watts for the climb. I'm working on pushing bigger gears on the flats now to remedy this. It's something you may consider also.

wolfchild

Riding out of the saddle is what I do a lot. I ride fixed gear and singlespeed bikes and the only way for me to climb bigger hills is to stand on the pedals.. With only one gear ratio it would be impossible to climb any hills while sitting. I find it really enjoyable to stand on the pedals and attack hills, sitting down and spinning granny gears sounds very boring...I am not dissing people who ride multi geared bikes, I know there is a limit as to how big of a hill I can climb. I live and ride in rolling terrain so there aren't any real mountains here but there are some wicked hills which have pushed me to my limits.

sprince

+1

Fixed gear kind of forces you to deal with it, whatever it is. Just being able to ride out of the saddle for long periods can get you over a lot of climbs.