How are y'all measuring efficiency, or gains to efficiency? What specific training improves efficiency? I'm still a little confused.

Non scientific for me.

But after say 3 months of training blocks - starting with FTP training, followed by VO2 sessions - and no marked improvements in those numbers...

Lower zone watts increased for the same HR numbers. Before 180w at 135bpm, after 200w at 135bpm. W/bpm got more efficient (for lack of better words)

I see +/- the same results from almost any kind of training - volume, Z3/Sweet spot, Z4+.

Personally- the only metrics I can budge, within my time constrains, are Z2/Low Z3 - and 5 second power.

Agreed.

But what I'm also saying, in response to your statements about training harder and breaking the plateau - I can't seem to raise the ceiling. V02 max/20-40 min power has genetic limitations - something that is probably impossible to overcome.

So, my goals are limited to improving efficiency. I could crush building sprint power - I have the genetics for that... but I'm too old to sprint, and why?

Everybody has their genetic limitations , nobody makes gains forever. Eventually fitness or performance peaks out and no amount of training can overcome those limitations.

Mt. Diablo, North gate to Summit from Castle Rock is the only one I know of. Mt. Hamiliton and Mt. Tamalpais are the other in the neighborhood refenced as HC. Mt. Tamalpais is definately not HC. I never climb Mt. Hamiliton so no opinion. Around Palo Alto, OLH and Page Mill were my go to.

Mt. Umunhum via Almaden Rd. is also an HC climb. A nasty one. I have yet to ride that route.

I just follow the EF number as reported by Training Peaks. It’s just normalized power/av heart rate. If you repeat a steady aerobic effort, and the EF number increases, I figure I’m getting more fit.

It’s a number. It goes up when I train, goes down when I stop training. I can go faster when my EF is higher, and that’s what matters to me. Performance.

I'm a randonneur ... involved in Audax events, brevets, etc. etc. and have been since 2001.

Did a 100K this past weekend.

Excellent! If you ever find yourself in the Southern Cévennes, you won't regret it: https://en.sudcevennes.com/activitie...cycling-route/

I find this plenty scientific already. So, if we were to form a training plan for individuals with < 10 h per week, any distribution of time among Z2, tempo/SS, Z4+ would work more or less, except that it cannot be all Z2 because there is not enough hours, and probably not all Z4+ because it would create fatigue issues pretty quickly. (?)

In autumn I found a nice groove where I would do a tempo ride every second or third day, about 70 to 75 km, but in the windy and cold winter I find that I cannot ask too much of my body so it is mostly Z2 with some intervals here and there.

I just keep track of my performance.

So you only monitor your maximal efforts then?

I like to measure my just-riding-along (sub-maximal) performance, too.

Since performance is what matters and performance in cycling is speed... not power, not efficiency, not W/kg... but speed.. how fast you can get from point A to B... some of which have nothing to do with fitness.. How are you measuring or confirming that your "performance" is actually imporoviing? Power is not performance, efficiency is not performance.. we've seen that in all likelihood how you are evaluating efficiency (TP "EF") is not even "efficiency"? Seems to be a lot of error built into your evaluation methodology 🤔

For example.. you could do yoga and stretching and be able to hold a lower tuck and gain more performance than you could get from fitness gains over many years.. ditto pacing.. ditto aero socks and ribbed shouldered jersey, ditto pacing strategy.. timing.. better drafting off other etc.. etc.. and improve performance.

Is your goal really to increase performance or fitness? Those are two different things!

Climbing is not complex. Aerobic power corresponds quite closely to climbing performance, where W/kg dominates every other measure.

You can spend money and time reducing your aero drag, for example, but aero matters little when you're grinding out a steep HC climb.

But I asked how you’re going to evaluate your ACTUAL performance gains…. Do you have your eyes on some KOM’s… Are you going to PR on some of your favourite climbs?? What are your actual metrics for measuring your performance gains? What are your goals for a “performance”?

I hope to improve my times on some climbs, of course. At 68 year old, I don't stand a chance of improving my all-time best times, but setting the best "old guy" time still may be attainable.

I'm considering this event: Mt. Blue Sky Hill Climb. It's a long climb, which suits my strengths.

A rising tide lifts all boats. My performance during maximal efforts is the tide. If they're improving (or declining), my sub-max performances usually do too.

Yes - my Z4+ work blows me up. Ruins much of the rest of my week.

I am not an athlete. I am not fast, I don't have a built in high VO2 - I don't respond or recover well to intense aerobic training. Nor am I naturally thin/slim... I bounce around at 185+, anything below is very difficult to achieve.

That being said, I like to pretend that I am a mountain billy goat and have the goal of hitting every major climb I can manage to travel to.

My goal is to perform at a higher level, more efficiently, in the lower zones. As my upper zones are capped by genetics/abilities.

This year I'm trying a slightly different approach - since most of my riding is "base miles", and I don't really take a break, I'm not worried about a base phase. I'm incorporating more Tempo/Sweet Spot work. I can tolerate and recover from doing long climbs or efforts of up to say an hour at tempo, and can handle 3x15 or 3x20 min efforts at sweet spot. I can recover, and continue to up my overall volume. I will cap it off with a 2 or 3 week block of VO2 sessions before I head out to my first major goal of the season.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I think that for the majority of us recreational cyclists it comes down to listening to our bodies and not demanding too much. I mostly cycle for cardio, and if, for example, on a Sunday I wake up feeling like doing 5 hours on the bike, then I'll do just that, whilst other times I'll do some tempo, or sweet spot, or intervals, or if the weather is really bad I will just endure.

I am going to argue with you Jughed. Not sure what defines an "athlete," but someone who dedicates so much time and energy is certainly athletic. You don't have to win medals or even compete to be athletic. Look at those crazy free climbers.

Just my take, on a snowy Sunday morning, spent watched "athletes" on TV.

💯

Agreed. Doing formal competitions is not a requirement to be an athlete.

I get the dividing line from my daughter’s old swim coach. He was an Olympian of some sort, an athlete.

Team USA swim team - 2 a day practices… he flat told parents, so they didn’t have unreasonable expectations, that their kids were good swimmers, not athletes.

Locally my girls were quick, regionals came along - we ran into a few athletes. The elite or those with the genetics to be elite.

I ride with a guy who’s father was an Olympic cyclist way back - he does nothing all winter and gets on a bike and is faster than me. He jumps right on and does 50 miles at 200w+.

I exercise, I ride bikes - but an athlete I am not.

”Athlete”…. just not “Elite athlete”?

In my mind - no.

There are plenty of athletes that don’t do the work to become elite.

I guess I base it on built in abilities vs what one does with said abilities.

I understand the technical or official definition doesn’t agree… no matter how hard I was to train, no matter how many miles I rode - my peak VO2 max wouldn’t reach the off the shelf numbers of a natural born athlete.

is: "I play real sports. Not trying to be the best at exercising."
Kenny Powers!!