Pasta and Simple Tomato Sauce
(from Cook's Illustrated)
Dresses 3/4 pound pasta

28 ounces diced tomatoes or whole tomatoes (not packed in puree or sauce)
2 medium cloves garlic, peeled
3 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
2 tablespoons coarsely chopped fresh basil leaves (about 8 leaves)
1/2 teaspoon granulated sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons table salt
3/4 pound pasta

1. If using diced tomatoes, go to step 2. If using whole tomatoes, drain and reserve liquid. Dice tomatoes either by hand or in workbowl of food processor fitted with metal blade (three or four 1/2-second pulses). Tomatoes should be coarse, with 1/4-inch pieces visible. If necessary, add enough reserved liquid to tomatoes to total 2 cups.

2. Process garlic through garlic press into small bowl; stir in 1 teaspoon water (this is important). Heat 2 tablespoons oil and sauté garlic in 10-inch sauté pan over medium heat until fragrant but not brown, about 2 minutes. Stir in tomatoes; simmer until thickened slightly, about 10 minutes. Stir in basil, sugar, and 1/2 teaspoon salt.

3. Meanwhile, cook pasta until al dente in large pot of boiling, salted water. Reserve 1/4 cup cooking water; drain pasta, and transfer it back to cooking pot. Mix in reserved cooking water, sauce, and remaining oil and salt; cook together over medium heat for 1 minute, stirring constantly, and serve immediately.

Interesting thread. Most of the posts show a great lack of knowledge regarding proper nutrient intake and nutrient timing. Your threads appear to be the most educated of the lot, Danno. You make a lot of good points. But I'd like to add a few that are missing. For example, the study you cite, while making an important point, doesn't really address the issue of recovery as completely as it could. Your last sentence misses the point as well, although it's an important one to make for the low-carb people who just don't get it yet. You will note that the Dutch study you cite lists several studies by John Ivy, perhaps one of the most important exercise physiologists in the United States today (he and Dr. Bob Portman are the ones behind Endurox R4 and Accelerade. They were great friends with Ed Burke, from USA cycling and author of several fantastic books, who recently passed away). The Dutch study you cite does not look at what happens when you add SUFFICIENT carbohydrates with a small amount of protein in your recovery drink. Ivy's group has shown that the 4:1 carb:protein ratio DOES work. Of course, there has to be adequate carbohydrate. So, while adequate carbohydrate is necessary for recovery (glycogen resynthesis), adding protein to the mix DOES improve recovery. Ivy and colleagues looked at diabetes research and found that what may be bad for diabetes is a boon for athletes. I know from my own reading in diabetes research that when protein and carbs are ingested in the right (wrong if you're a diabetic) proportions, an insulin burst is the result. Bad for diabetes, great news for athletes needing to spare glycogen.

You quoted the Dutch study:

"A 1.2g/kg/hr carb-intake rebuilds muscle-glycogen faster than a 0.8g/kg/hr carb+0.4/kg/hr protein mix, which is faster than a low 0.8g/kg/hr carb-intake. Again, if your blood-glucose levels are insufficient to keep up with glycogen-rebuilding rate, muscular protein will be converted instead. The fastest recovery rate is with a high-carb mixture".

Of course, this study does not look at what happens when adequate carbohydrate plus some protein is ingested post-ride. I think your comment that "above a baseline carb-level, a carb + protein mixture does not result in glycogen synthesis as fast as a high-carb mixture" is misleading. To wit, if your carb baseline is adequate, adding protein clearly improves recovery post-workout.

To see that, read:

Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Oct;93(4):1337-44.

Ivy, JL. Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise. Can J Appl Physiol. 2001;26 Suppl:S236-45. Review.

Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL. Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1992 May;72(5):1854-9.

Other good reads:

Ha E, Zemel MB. Functional properties of whey, whey components, and essential amino acids: mechanisms underlying health benefits for active people (review). J Nutr Biochem. 2003 May;14(5):251-8. Review.

Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL. Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR. Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Dec;36(12):2073-81.

Borsheim E, Aarsland A, Wolfe RR. Effect of an amino acid, protein, and carbohydrate mixture on net muscle protein balance after resistance exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2004 Jun;14(3):255-71.

Middleton N, Jelen P, Bell G. Whole blood and mononuclear cell glutathione response to dietary whey protein supplementation in sedentary and trained male human subjects. Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2004 Mar;55(2):131-41.

Marshall K. Therapeutic applications of whey protein.
Altern Med Rev. 2004 Jun;9(2):136-56. Review.

The other point missing from this thread is exactly what type of carbohydrate should be ingested after the ride for recovery. I do agree that BCAA, glutamine, certain salts and other recovery aids are important to recovery. But the most important carbohydrate to ingest (NO LATER THAN 45 minutes post-workout--try for 15 minutes post-workout, or just after your cool-down) is one high on the glycemic index. Sucrose or glucose is good DURING the workout, but after, maltodextrin or dextrose. Those posters above who are eating low glycemic index carbs right after the workout are simply missing the boat. Low glycemic index carbs are important for ultra-endurance events only, and should also be a part of the normal diet. However, as a recovery food, they simply don't work because it takes to long to break them down.

Another point missing from this thread, and one you omitted, is regarding a proper cool-down after the workout. It should be 15 minutes and should be performed at about 40% MHR. In the start of your post, you mention muscle structure and muscle breakdown and inflamation. You fail to mention perhaps the most important point about muscle damage from a work-out: lactic acid. Lactate (i.e., lactic acid) can be present post-workout for as long as 60-90 minutes if it is not cleared quickly. What is most essential for persons wanting to recover without excessive DOMS (delayed-onset muscle soreness) is a proper cool-down. The 15-minute cool-down at 40% MHR is the best and easiest way to clear lactic acid quickly. If lactate sits in the muscles too long, more muscle damage will result. It makes sense that acid floating around in muscle tissue is a bad idea, and if you can clear it more quickly, there will be less muscle damage. So everybody should not skip the cool-down. Unfortunately, less serious athletes do skip it, and complain about DOMS frequently.

Finally, I think it's bad advice to state that it's not important to consume a sports drink before exercise. It's also important during exercise (for most people, 30 minutes or longer). Drinking 30 minutes prior to a workout or competition is essential to begin hydration. We know that a 5-6% carb drink hydrates better than water alone. Numerous studies state this, too many to list here. What Ivy and colleagues found is that adding the protein also helps more rapid hydration. You simply do not want to wait until the start of a race or workout to begin hydrating.

Sufficient for who? Also-rans?

I like this! I cup of SILK chocolate soy milk, for example contains 5 g protein, 23 g carbohydrates, of which 19 g are sugars. It's about a 4:1 ratio of carb-to-protein. Plus, it contains sodium and potassium (that's for banana-obsessed people who think only bananas contain postassium)!

However, for serious athletes it's not good enough. Here's why: the protein in soy is inferior to whey, which has the highest biological value of any protein. Whey contains BCAA and glutamine in much higher quantites than soy. Vegetables and bean proteins have the lowest biological value of all the proteins. One cup of SILK chocolate soy milk also contains 3.5 grams of fat. It's good fat, but at the wrong time. No fat during the recovery period is the best advice regarding nutrient timing.

But I still like the sugestion! It's not really any cheaper than a good recovery sports drink, though, now is it. I like Endurox R4. Simple. Extra glutamine. Better salts. Superior protein.

this is really great stuff, danno and cape. you two keep at it. now, let me sum up what i've gotten from this thread and one or two others that danno has contributed to. correct me if anything is wrong:

1.) cape - i should drink a sports drink half an hour before a race or workout. i've always taken one or two gulps, but it sounds like cape is suggesting a full bottle. true?
2.) danno - i tend to not eat on a ride, at leat not for the first three or four hours. danno suggests i eat ~200 calories of gels per hour, starting at the beginning of a ride, to minimize or delay the onset of muscle protein usage
3.) cape - a slow (and i mean SLOW; 40% max heart rate is almost comatose) cool down for approx. 15 minutes helps prevent my legs from feeling sore later in the evening
4.) both - at 70 kilos, i should be looking for ~400 calories of carb and a bit of protein intake immediately after a ride
5.) cape - the protein should be good stuff, and the carbs high glycemic. i use a gnc whey protein powder that has bcaa's and glutamine. i mix it with skim milk, and can make it to a level of about 75-100 calories. then i should eat the rest of the calories as carbs. a partial list of high glycemic carbs i found follows:

HIGH GLYCEMIC INDEX FOODS

Watermelon
Dried dates
Instant mashed potatoes
Baked white potato
Parsnips
Rutabaga
Instant rice
Corn Flakes™
Rice Krispies™
Cheerios™
Bagel, white
Soda crackers
Jellybeans
French fries
Ice cream
Digestive cookies
Table sugar (sucrose)

while the thought of a big ol' plate of rutabagas with parsnips doesn't make me salivate at the end of a ride, i can do the cheerios or rice krispies easy enough. and an einstein bros. bagel is ~320 calories.

you two feel free to correct anything i've misunderstood. thanks

Okay. Drink about half a liter of drink 30 minutes before, and keep sipping until race/ride/workout time. Sip every ten minutes at a rate of 24 oz. per hour or so during the ride. Adjust as needed. The drink should be 5-6% simple sugar (e.g., sucrose or glucose) in water with protein at a 4:1 carb:protein ratio. That's about 20 g carbs and 5 g protein in about 24 oz. water. Accelerade. For long rides, you'll need to eat during the ride. Longer than 3 hours is a long ride in my world, but many people just drink and do okay.

I'm pretty sure it's 40% MHR. I'll get back to you. I know it's unbelievably SLOW, slower than most people do their cool-down. Way slower.

The recovery drink should be much more concentrated than the drink you use during activity. It should be liquid. I forget that now too...getting tired. Okay, it's 12 oz. water with 50-55 g of a little more complex carbs (e.g., dextrose, maltodextrins) and 10-12 g proteins, with electrolytes (salts) in small but adequate concentration, extra glutamine. It's important to get the carbs in a solution of water, and lactose would be a poor choice for most people as a recovery carb. Adjust calories based on your weight and intensity/duration of exercise. I think if you're 120 lbs. or less, half the above amounts in 6 oz. water will work as the recovery drink. Again, adjust as you feel necessary.

I also like bromelain (a supplement from pineapple stems) for recovery (it works as an anti-inflammatory, too), but it's a digestive enzyme and shouldn't be taken on an empty stomach for some people. It also needs to be cycled (e.g., 3 weeks on, 3 weeks off) and not taken continuously.

Cape, glad to have you onboard. I'm a great fan of Ed Burke and Chester Kyle having had some coaching from them back in '80s at the OTC. At the time they were one of the very few applying scientific methods to cycling-research. Most others in the field were still in the "no pain, no gain" mentality using no feedback from emperical evidence gathered in the field.

Anyway, we're talking about separate but overlapping ideas. Combined, they provide a more complete picture. Yes, we are talking about two different scenarios of recovery drinks:

1. insufficient carb intake was what I was focusing on. Too many people are doing themselves harm by focusing on protein and not carbs. As it is, we eat way more than enough protein everyday. Just that the OP's question on protein shakes and common myths about recovery drinks completely ignore the issues of insufficient carb-intake. With the low calorie intakes they're talking about, the 300-400 Calories is best spent on pure carbs. That's all my reference was for, a 350 Calorie intake for 160lb cyclist.

2. sufficient carb intake and full recovery that you're talking about, can be further enhanced with a 4:1 carb/protein mix. This is pretty much a given with the kinds of meals well-trained athletes have anyway. The 756 Calorie amount used in the JAP-Oct'03 article you referenced is double the mininum amounts from my study. I would suggest people eat this much after a ride for recovery as well.

We're both on the same page. Low-carb counters are severely hurting their performance and fitness improvement rates by limiting their carb intake during and after exercise. I also suspect the athletes you're thinking about is also a little higher up the ladder than I envisioned; someone who's out to achieve maximum performance for a 2-4 hour race (not a weekend-warrior doing 50-miles endurance on the Sunday for a 200-mile week). Yes, when I did those kinds of intense events, we'd carbo-load the night before with 2000 Calories. Then another 750-1000 Calories at breakfast before the ride then start drinking energy drinks on the way to the races. The feedbags would have at least 1000 Calories in drinks, gels and bars. We'd even have 2-3 feed stations in a race sometimes. And yes, they'd be the highest-GI stuff we can find, same for recovery foods.

As I pointed out in some other thread, our ideas on nutrition is the same; optimised for maximum-performance. The low-carb folks' programme is for quick weight-loss at the sacrifice of lean-muscle mass, performance and fitness-gains. Two differents paths to two different results. People can just choose the results they want and follow the path that gets them there.

Thanks, glad to be here. You've got a good thing goin' on, Danno. I've enjoyed your posts a lot. Happy holidays!

Thank you Duck22

i disagree with this. my reason for jumping into this discussion was because i want to maximize my performance (i have a goal of posting a 25 mph TT this year), AND why not drop some body fat at the same time, to help a bit more with my climbing? why can't i do both? i don't care about my WEIGHT; if it goes up a few pounds due to increased muscle mass that helps improve my time trialing, while my body fat percentage goes down, i don't have a problem. are you saying i can't do both? as i told ya before, i'm not one of those high-protein folks, so low-carb issues don't apply to me

Sure, you can do both. Focus on the maximum-performance path and the weight-loss is an automatic side-effect. You'll gain some muscle and lose some fat while making big improvements in strength and cardio systems. The weight loss, realistically, will be 1-lb a week max without sacrificing muscle or performance.

It's a different pathway and programme than a low-carb/low-calorie diet for sedentary folks that can lose 10-15 lbs a month. With that rapid of weight-loss, there's no way to prevent losing 25% of that in muscle as well, and the body-fat percentage actually stays fairly constant after the first couple months after you hit a plateau around 20% body-fat. This is the kind of instant-fix that's really appealing to couch-potatoes. They don't realize they aren't really improving their health or fitness* in any way, just losing weight.

These are two complete different diet-plans for two completely different lifestyles aiming for two completley different results. The bigger problem is not being able to distinguish these two programmes as being different and taking this low-carb diet idea into the performance arena. The increased calorie-expenditure from exercise combined with the low-carb sedentary diet results in even faster muscle destruction and severely limits the fitness-improvement rate. If you're getting sufficient carbs, like a 4:1 ratio, you're on the maximum-performance plan. Your high-GI recovery food are fine too, except the ice-cream's a little high on fats.

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* I define health&fitness in terms of RHR, LT (muscle-strength/efficiency), HR recovery-rate VO2-max, lean-muscle mass, none of which can be improved through dieting.

I don’t really think of my protein shake as food, as the scoop of powder is only 100kcal. However, I do take some whey immediately after a hard workout (and food shortly after) in order to take advantage of some of the effects certain amino have been shown to have.

Glutamine : has been called conditionally essential in that your body’s levels of it drop significantly during hard exercise and supplementing with it may help ward off post exercise immunosuppression. Also can help rebuild glycogen stores via gluconeogenesis (as can other proteins)

Glutamic acid : converts to glutamine while soaking up harmful ammonia produced during exercise.

BCAA (valine, leucine and isoleucine): Can help delay perception of fatigue. Think TTing

Aspartate and asparagines: Involved in krebs cycle for direct energy production (glycogen sparing)

And of course the essential aminos can’t be made by your body (carbs can be)

Sure you can get this stuff in a piece of chicken but it won’t be ready fast enough to provide the full benefits as your body will have already takin what it needs from your muscles. Carbs are carbs but protein could be up to 20 or even 22 performance enhancing drugs, in a way. ;)

That said I am not dismissing the importance of carbs during and right after exercise; champions eat a lot of carbs.

i'll put up with a few cheap shots at ice cream, but don't you start up again on donuts. i'm not gonna listen to that

one last thought for you and cape: all you hear about is long aerobic rides to stimulate the fat burnoff, blah, blah, blah, but i've noticed that i seem to get leaner from my anaerobic intervals rides than from my aerobic rides. heck, for a day or so after my intervals the ol' bod just feels a little strange, like it's still in high prf and still sorting things out. am i a genetic mutant (okay, i'll play straight man), or am i burning fat off by high-intensity riding?

I almost always make-a-shake after ride on anything 20 kilometres or longer.

- 1 scoop vanilla flavor whey powder
- 1 peeled banana
- 1 raw egg (optional-at lunch time only)
- 5gm L-Glutamine
- milk to fill

Spin altogether in a single serving 2/cup blender for 30 seconds.

Indulge!

What burns more calories? A ride that lasts one hour and is slow paced, or a ride that lasts one hour at that pace with some speed mixed in? The more energy expended, the more fat burned. Period.

Ok, I've had some ice-cream and donuts in the past couple months too, nothing wrong with them, just watch the amount. Although I've cut out dairy significantly since it affects my asthma. :(


Yeah, it just comes down to total calories burnt. Do you have any data on your workouts and your body-weight & body-fat % ? I suspect what you're experiencing is that the hard workouts is building muscle. That gives your body a leaner more defined look. The extra muscle also lowers body-fat%, even though the actual amount of fat loss may not be as much. You'll lower body-fat % and get more ripped. :)

This is actually a better regimen than something that loses weight fast initially. Because you're building strength and fitness now, you'll be able to do long 3-4 hour rides at a higher intensity later. This will allow you to burn a higher calories/hr rate and for more hours. You'll be able to drop the weight faster later, than if you tried doing it now. So keep up the good work!

Love my protein shake after a long hard ride.

1 scoop of Whey protein
1 bananna
Some frozen fruit (Strawberry's, Blueberry's etc)
Some Orange Juice and Plain Soy Milk
1 large tablespoon of plain yogurt

Don't know how many calories and don't care.

This is also my breakfast 2 out of 3 mornings while I am driving to work. On days (like weekends) when I plan to have a big ride I have oatmeal for breakfast.

I make almost the exact same thing, except I use strawberry yogurt. (I really, really like strawberries!)

Some days when I don't really feel like riding I'll just think about that after ride shake... yum... Can't have the shake without the ride, so I better get going!

I also add some ice cubes to it in the summer. Makes it more like a smoothie and helps keep me hydrated.

Az

x2 :beer:

Yup up from 40-50gm/day to 80-100gm/day.

I don't know what my MHR is, but I suspect it's at least 190. I've managed to get up to around 180 during relatively normal exercise.
But 40% of 190 is 76, and it takes me at least half an hour to get down to 70-75 after a normal ride (1-2 hours at 145-155 bpm), even if I lie down! :)
(My RHR is just under 50, if that matters).

Lactic-acid is not the same as lactate... Lactic-acid is converted to lactate fairly quickly and dissipates within minutes. Lactate is how it's transported outside of the muscle-cells and is actually used as a fuel-source and recycled in the Krebs cycle.

I don't know if it's possible to do warm-down at 40%, it takes about 20-25 minutes of resting on a couch meditating and taking measured controlled breaths to get there. I usually warm down for 10 minutes on the last leg at about 50%.

I just had odwalla's super protein. Yummm:)

Lactate and lactic acid can be thought of as the same thing; lactate is just the conjugate base of lactic acid. Acid base reactions occur so quickly (k near infinity) that we cannot separate an acid from its conjugate base via chromatographic techniques (from an observation point its the same compound). Now the lactic acid you feel in your legs is really H3O+ build-up and that can have any conjugate base "attached" to it provided the pKa is appropriate. The lactate can leave the acid proton behind with something else (a red blood cell protein). That’s why high hematocrit can help during anaerobic efforts.

Now lactose – lactate that is a common mistake.