Anyone have protein shakes after a long ride?
 

I always have a nice protein shake after a long ride to start rebuilding all those torn muscle cells. My formula is 1 cup nonfat milk, 1 scoop of Optimum Nutrition Vanilla Whey, 1/4 Cup Oats, and a dab of peanut butter. Tastes great, and is filling as well. Anyone else with me on this one?

those kind of shakes always give me a little bit of a digestive problem. so, i don't have them anymore. i just try to eat a good meal like chicken with pasta.

Absolutely! I am a firm believer in Protein Shakes.
I use 2 large scoops of Vanilla or Chocolate Protein Isolate
and a Tablespoon of Psyillium Husks and 3 cups of skim milk.

Fills me up for hours and yes, I believe it is the perfect drink
for after a big ride.

Ned Goudy

Ned-I am just curious but that seems to me to be serious overkill in one dose. It is my understanding that the human body can only metablize about 30g of protein at a time-That lot has to be close to 70-80g!

It certainly doesn't hurt though. Your body will absorb only as much protein as needed to repair damaged muscle-tissue, the rest will just get flushed down the toilet. There's no way that you can force more in than the 60-100g day that's typically absorbed.

Carbs are another matter and it needs to be taken in sufficiently for full recovery of the glycogen-stores. If you've ridden of enough to have depleted the 2000calories that's stored in the muscles, and you don't each enough carbs to replenish it, your body will take apart perfeclty good muscle that's already on your body to convert into glycogen and restock your energy stores.

So it can't hurt to take in too much protein, but it certainly will hurt you to not have enough carbs. :)

I am sure it doesn't hurt, except I am not sure excess protein is simply flushed out. I have heard it argued several different ways. It just makes more sense to me to disperse your protein consumption out throughout the day.

Yeah, I think it depends upon your source of proteins. Complete proteins from meats are fair-game I think, but you do have to take in the fats along with it. Supplement and protein powders with basic aminos may have disproportionate ratios that may cause problems leading to things like L-tryptophan being yanked from the market. Overall, you have to understand the underlying physiological and metabolic processes involved and optimize and balance interdepent rates of everything. You can't just tweak and force one part without it having adverse effects elsewhere.

On common problems of insufficient carb-intake shows up with fast initial weight-loss, but maintaining same body-fat% due to muscle being disassembled as well: Losing weight but stopped losing fat... what now?. And more detailed mechanism and calculations shown here: Burning Fat/Burning Glycogen.

Part of the issue is that low blood-sugar from insufficient carbs will not raise insulin/leptin levels after a meal. This causes the glucose-absorption rate into the muscles to be slow and muscles wiill be torn apart at a faster rate. Low blood-sugar & leptin levels also cause you to feel hungry, and feeling like that chronically sucks. You get tempted to binge and do more harm to your exercise programme.

protein will improve glycogen formation after a ride. Try to get about 100g carbs plus at least 30g protein. easily digested protein, such as whey protein, plus high glycaemic carbs are the way to go. This will maximise glycogen formation. The excess protein can be converted into glycogen or fat. The body is not too wasteful, it wil not all go down the loo. BTW the body can absorb much more than 1g protein per pound of bodyweight. Studies consistently show that endurance athletes, not just strength athletes, need lots more protein than a sedentary person.

I'd just like to jump in and second MattyLimbo's point that the body can absorb well over 1g/lb of bodyweight. It's a common fallacy (especially among endurance athletes) that anything over 30g in one sittting will not be absorbed. Absolutely false. Given then amount of muscle damage from a long ride, assuming you're working hard and there is moderate elevation change somewhere, the average person should go for more than 30g. And that big plate/bowl of chicken and pasta probably has more than 30g, but for some reason people get scared when it's protein powder.
It probably wouldn't hurt to add a little extra glutamine and creatine either, or to take in some branched chain amino acids (BCAA) during that ride along with your water/gatorade/power gel.

The fellas at RoadBikeRider.com claim chocolate milk is a sufficient post ride beverage.

Nah, I get my 4-to-1 carbo-to-protein ratio with a big glass of cold chocolate soy milk. That tides me over till I can have a meal, usually within the hour.

As a f/t commuter, I have the makings for shakes at work and and home, and combine a shake with a good carb source after every ride. It works very well for me.

Another protien loader, as if cycling is a strenth sport. the sorness you feel after a hard ride is depleted glycogen. im a cat 1, race season i consume 90 grms of protien a day. off season 70 grms. but carbs 600 grms. to much protien = to many calories= fat, kidney problems etc.

Last time I checked (1 min. ago) carbs and protein both contain the same amount of calories gram for gram. (4 calories in each gram as opposed to 9 calories per gram of fat) So you may want to reconsider your "protein makes you fat" assumption and change your diet accordingly.

Uh no... the soreness is due to bound Z-bands and the excessive breakdown of muscle fibers, which causes the release of muscle cell content. The cell content attracts inflammatory cells, which release chemicals that irritate nerve fibers, causing pain. These same chemicals also attract repair cells that contribute to healing and development of the muscle (fibroblasts).

The body will then rebuild these damaged muscle-fibre using free amino-acids from the bloodstream. The 70-90gm protein a day is about right for maximum tissue-rebuilding. However, only an amount sufficient to rebuild muscle-cells (and a little bit more) will be absorbed. Eating 10-lbs of steaks will not automatically result in 10-lb of muscle gain on your body. It's like putting water into a sponge, you can't force 10-gallons into a kitchen sponge no matter how hard you try.

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It's not just what you eat, it's what happens to it once it gets into your bloodstream. You need to be able to follow each and every single piece of glucose or protein through the body and see how it interacts with the various systems.

First, as an energy source for generating, protein is the most inefficient. The rates of conversion to ATP for carb, protein, fats is 0.842, 0.520 and 0.883. Protein as an energy source is most inefficient due to the conversion overhead: http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/4/1309 . And muscle-protein within the muscle-fibres is the most readily metabolised source in the absense of glycogen. Free-floating amino-acids in the bloodstream is not as easily used due to the transport time. So if you bonk and run out of carbs to burn, the body will disasssemble muscle to use for energy faster than using ingested protein.

Second, as a method for replenishing muscle-glycogen stores during recovery, above a baseline carb-level, a carb+protein mixture does not result in glycogen synthesis as fast as a high-carb mixture: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/1/106

http://www.ajcn.org/content/vol72/is...um/010574a.gif

A 1.2g/kg/hr carb-intake rebuilds muscle-glycogen faster than a 0.8g/kg/hr carb+0.4/kg/hr protein mix, which is faster than a low 0.8g/kg/hr carb-intake. Again, if your blood-glucose levels are insufficient to keep up with glycogen-rebuilding rate, muscular protein will be converted instead. The fastest recovery rate is with a high-carb mixture.


It depends upon how you get your protein. Getting it from meats will force you to take fat along with it; which is higher calorie-density than both protein & carbs. While extra protein above amount needed to rebuild muscle doesn't hurt above the 60-90g/day maximum intake for rebuilding muscles. However, if you're low on carbs to replenish muscle-glycogen stores, you will actually end up hurting muscle-rebuilding because your muscles will be taken apart to restore glycogen levels. That's why athletes on fast weight-loss and low-carb diets ends up losing weight while maintaining the same body-fat %, because they're losing as much muscle as fat... Not good for fast fitness-improvement rates or maximum-performance. You will end up as a thin 150lb twig with a double-chin, high body-fat%, high resting-heartrate, low VO2-max, low LT, low max-HR recovery rates, low recovery between workouts and generally slower fitness improvement rates.

In summary, excess carbs hurt performance a lot less than excess protein with insufficient carbs.

I am not a nutrionist, but the way I figure it there
are enough carbs in the milk to give me what I need
and I can pass the extra protein if it is not used.

But I AM on a weight loss regime and my intent
is to lose. I don't feel I am losing muscle tho,
because sometimes I gain a little weight or
stall out for a few weeks if I am getting more
exercise on the bike.

Gotta run, I am gonna get me some free wheel'n
sunshine and fresh air on this great So. California
day.

Ned

I have a shake after a hard ride. 1 scoop of whey protien Chocolate, 8 ounce skim milk,ice cubes,banana touch of Peanut Butter....blend till smooth.

As long as you track everything you eat and are getting sufficient carbs, you're fine. Weight-loss will result when fewer calories are ingested than exercised off. But without knowning an exact number of what's eaten to compare to the exercise level, no one can make an assessment of "enough carbs". This site has a good tracking programme: http://www.fitday.com. Also tracking body-fat% along with weight yields useful feedback to correlate with diet and training regimen.

There are also numerous factors involving fat/lipid metabolism: Adiposity 101. A low-carb diet quickly hits a plateau of weight-loss where muscle-disassembly is necessary for further progress. At which point, weight continues to drop, but body-fat% remains constant. :(

okay, danno, i'll buy what you say so far. but let's look at another angle. i'm trying to keep my weight under control, lose some body fat, and maximize my riding by watching this stuff based on when i eat. i'm currently experimenting with the idea of eating carbs during breakfast and lunch, and i now eat carbs after a ride, and i try and save eating my protein (from a commercial shake mix) with my dinner. i used to have a protein shake after a long or hard ride, but i've gone to carbs then, and the protein shake in the evening. i don't pay much attention to fats; i don't eat meat and very little junk food, so i just don't concern myself with it. any thoughts?

Yes, when I have a working blender, but mine recently crashed :(

That sounds great! If you're eating fewer calories than you burn to lose weight, timing the meals does affect the balance of muscle vs. fat loss. Eating the carbs before the ride isn't as important as after since you usually have well-stocked glycogen-stores at the beginning. However, if you're going to be riding a long ride such that you will be depleting your entire 2000-calorie supply (like 2-3+ hour ride), then eating carbs before the ride is very important. In both cases, post-ride carb-intake is the most important part for recovery and staving off muscle-breakdown. Then protein meal later is fine.

I would however, be concerned with fat intake. Fats have the highest calorie-density, 9-Cal/gm so you really should watch it. A big plate of fettucini-carbonara may have 500-calories from the pasta, 250-calories protein from the ham, but 1000-calories in fat from the cheese and oil. It would take about three days in a row of high-mileage endurance-rides (60-75 miles) to burn off the 1000-calories from fat just to break even on this meal. Better off to get that dish with marinara sauce and cut out most of those fat-calories altogether with the same carb & protein intake. :)

sounds like you agree with the idea of eating mostly carbs throughout the day and saving the protein for evening, when your body is gonna get some sleep and use it to repair itself. i'll keep at this for a while and see how it works. i don't concern myself with fats because i don't eat much fat at all. olive oil is about the only fat i regularly consume. i don't even like that plate of fettucini alfredo you talked about; i prefer the marinara sauce. heck, last time i checked my total cholesterol was below 130. now, if i could just lose the love handles.....

Heh, heh... I wish I had love-handles. A long time ago, they grew into an inner-tube, then a full-fledged monster-truck tyre!!! :eek:

A lot of my protein shakes after a ride, espec. if I have low blood sugar. On the other hand, the fat tends to shake during a ride, espec. on a rough surface.

Pardon me, what is a marinara sauce?

Pasta and Simple Tomato Sauce
(from Cook's Illustrated)
Dresses 3/4 pound pasta

28 ounces diced tomatoes or whole tomatoes (not packed in puree or sauce)
2 medium cloves garlic, peeled
3 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
2 tablespoons coarsely chopped fresh basil leaves (about 8 leaves)
1/2 teaspoon granulated sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons table salt
3/4 pound pasta

1. If using diced tomatoes, go to step 2. If using whole tomatoes, drain and reserve liquid. Dice tomatoes either by hand or in workbowl of food processor fitted with metal blade (three or four 1/2-second pulses). Tomatoes should be coarse, with 1/4-inch pieces visible. If necessary, add enough reserved liquid to tomatoes to total 2 cups.

2. Process garlic through garlic press into small bowl; stir in 1 teaspoon water (this is important). Heat 2 tablespoons oil and sauté garlic in 10-inch sauté pan over medium heat until fragrant but not brown, about 2 minutes. Stir in tomatoes; simmer until thickened slightly, about 10 minutes. Stir in basil, sugar, and 1/2 teaspoon salt.

3. Meanwhile, cook pasta until al dente in large pot of boiling, salted water. Reserve 1/4 cup cooking water; drain pasta, and transfer it back to cooking pot. Mix in reserved cooking water, sauce, and remaining oil and salt; cook together over medium heat for 1 minute, stirring constantly, and serve immediately.

Interesting thread. Most of the posts show a great lack of knowledge regarding proper nutrient intake and nutrient timing. Your threads appear to be the most educated of the lot, Danno. You make a lot of good points. But I'd like to add a few that are missing. For example, the study you cite, while making an important point, doesn't really address the issue of recovery as completely as it could. Your last sentence misses the point as well, although it's an important one to make for the low-carb people who just don't get it yet. You will note that the Dutch study you cite lists several studies by John Ivy, perhaps one of the most important exercise physiologists in the United States today (he and Dr. Bob Portman are the ones behind Endurox R4 and Accelerade. They were great friends with Ed Burke, from USA cycling and author of several fantastic books, who recently passed away). The Dutch study you cite does not look at what happens when you add SUFFICIENT carbohydrates with a small amount of protein in your recovery drink. Ivy's group has shown that the 4:1 carb:protein ratio DOES work. Of course, there has to be adequate carbohydrate. So, while adequate carbohydrate is necessary for recovery (glycogen resynthesis), adding protein to the mix DOES improve recovery. Ivy and colleagues looked at diabetes research and found that what may be bad for diabetes is a boon for athletes. I know from my own reading in diabetes research that when protein and carbs are ingested in the right (wrong if you're a diabetic) proportions, an insulin burst is the result. Bad for diabetes, great news for athletes needing to spare glycogen.

You quoted the Dutch study:

"A 1.2g/kg/hr carb-intake rebuilds muscle-glycogen faster than a 0.8g/kg/hr carb+0.4/kg/hr protein mix, which is faster than a low 0.8g/kg/hr carb-intake. Again, if your blood-glucose levels are insufficient to keep up with glycogen-rebuilding rate, muscular protein will be converted instead. The fastest recovery rate is with a high-carb mixture".

Of course, this study does not look at what happens when adequate carbohydrate plus some protein is ingested post-ride. I think your comment that "above a baseline carb-level, a carb + protein mixture does not result in glycogen synthesis as fast as a high-carb mixture" is misleading. To wit, if your carb baseline is adequate, adding protein clearly improves recovery post-workout.

To see that, read:

Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Oct;93(4):1337-44.

Ivy, JL. Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise. Can J Appl Physiol. 2001;26 Suppl:S236-45. Review.

Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL. Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1992 May;72(5):1854-9.

Other good reads:

Ha E, Zemel MB. Functional properties of whey, whey components, and essential amino acids: mechanisms underlying health benefits for active people (review). J Nutr Biochem. 2003 May;14(5):251-8. Review.

Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL. Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR. Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Dec;36(12):2073-81.

Borsheim E, Aarsland A, Wolfe RR. Effect of an amino acid, protein, and carbohydrate mixture on net muscle protein balance after resistance exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2004 Jun;14(3):255-71.

Middleton N, Jelen P, Bell G. Whole blood and mononuclear cell glutathione response to dietary whey protein supplementation in sedentary and trained male human subjects. Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2004 Mar;55(2):131-41.

Marshall K. Therapeutic applications of whey protein.
Altern Med Rev. 2004 Jun;9(2):136-56. Review.

The other point missing from this thread is exactly what type of carbohydrate should be ingested after the ride for recovery. I do agree that BCAA, glutamine, certain salts and other recovery aids are important to recovery. But the most important carbohydrate to ingest (NO LATER THAN 45 minutes post-workout--try for 15 minutes post-workout, or just after your cool-down) is one high on the glycemic index. Sucrose or glucose is good DURING the workout, but after, maltodextrin or dextrose. Those posters above who are eating low glycemic index carbs right after the workout are simply missing the boat. Low glycemic index carbs are important for ultra-endurance events only, and should also be a part of the normal diet. However, as a recovery food, they simply don't work because it takes to long to break them down.

Another point missing from this thread, and one you omitted, is regarding a proper cool-down after the workout. It should be 15 minutes and should be performed at about 40% MHR. In the start of your post, you mention muscle structure and muscle breakdown and inflamation. You fail to mention perhaps the most important point about muscle damage from a work-out: lactic acid. Lactate (i.e., lactic acid) can be present post-workout for as long as 60-90 minutes if it is not cleared quickly. What is most essential for persons wanting to recover without excessive DOMS (delayed-onset muscle soreness) is a proper cool-down. The 15-minute cool-down at 40% MHR is the best and easiest way to clear lactic acid quickly. If lactate sits in the muscles too long, more muscle damage will result. It makes sense that acid floating around in muscle tissue is a bad idea, and if you can clear it more quickly, there will be less muscle damage. So everybody should not skip the cool-down. Unfortunately, less serious athletes do skip it, and complain about DOMS frequently.

Finally, I think it's bad advice to state that it's not important to consume a sports drink before exercise. It's also important during exercise (for most people, 30 minutes or longer). Drinking 30 minutes prior to a workout or competition is essential to begin hydration. We know that a 5-6% carb drink hydrates better than water alone. Numerous studies state this, too many to list here. What Ivy and colleagues found is that adding the protein also helps more rapid hydration. You simply do not want to wait until the start of a race or workout to begin hydrating.

Sufficient for who? Also-rans?

I like this! I cup of SILK chocolate soy milk, for example contains 5 g protein, 23 g carbohydrates, of which 19 g are sugars. It's about a 4:1 ratio of carb-to-protein. Plus, it contains sodium and potassium (that's for banana-obsessed people who think only bananas contain postassium)!

However, for serious athletes it's not good enough. Here's why: the protein in soy is inferior to whey, which has the highest biological value of any protein. Whey contains BCAA and glutamine in much higher quantites than soy. Vegetables and bean proteins have the lowest biological value of all the proteins. One cup of SILK chocolate soy milk also contains 3.5 grams of fat. It's good fat, but at the wrong time. No fat during the recovery period is the best advice regarding nutrient timing.

But I still like the sugestion! It's not really any cheaper than a good recovery sports drink, though, now is it. I like Endurox R4. Simple. Extra glutamine. Better salts. Superior protein.

this is really great stuff, danno and cape. you two keep at it. now, let me sum up what i've gotten from this thread and one or two others that danno has contributed to. correct me if anything is wrong:

1.) cape - i should drink a sports drink half an hour before a race or workout. i've always taken one or two gulps, but it sounds like cape is suggesting a full bottle. true?
2.) danno - i tend to not eat on a ride, at leat not for the first three or four hours. danno suggests i eat ~200 calories of gels per hour, starting at the beginning of a ride, to minimize or delay the onset of muscle protein usage
3.) cape - a slow (and i mean SLOW; 40% max heart rate is almost comatose) cool down for approx. 15 minutes helps prevent my legs from feeling sore later in the evening
4.) both - at 70 kilos, i should be looking for ~400 calories of carb and a bit of protein intake immediately after a ride
5.) cape - the protein should be good stuff, and the carbs high glycemic. i use a gnc whey protein powder that has bcaa's and glutamine. i mix it with skim milk, and can make it to a level of about 75-100 calories. then i should eat the rest of the calories as carbs. a partial list of high glycemic carbs i found follows:

HIGH GLYCEMIC INDEX FOODS

Watermelon
Dried dates
Instant mashed potatoes
Baked white potato
Parsnips
Rutabaga
Instant rice
Corn Flakes™
Rice Krispies™
Cheerios™
Bagel, white
Soda crackers
Jellybeans
French fries
Ice cream
Digestive cookies
Table sugar (sucrose)

while the thought of a big ol' plate of rutabagas with parsnips doesn't make me salivate at the end of a ride, i can do the cheerios or rice krispies easy enough. and an einstein bros. bagel is ~320 calories.

you two feel free to correct anything i've misunderstood. thanks