wolfpack 

Hi everyone,

I need a little advice or suggestions as to training. Yesterday, after a group ride of 56 miles, I have now reached the 1000 mile point in my training. Up till now, I’ve pretty much just been riding without any real direction. I guess you could say the mileage was junk miles although I have improved my overall average. My purpose has been to get as much saddle time as possible with the initial end result being to ride in the MS 150 in September. I’ve got the miles in, I’ve seen my average speeds increase from right at 13mph to a current 15.5mph, and I feel pretty comfortable on longer rides now.

I’m now interested in not just the MS 150, but riding more in general, to ride longer, like 70-80miles and be comfortable at a 16-17mph average. My goals have changed from just doing the MS 150 to becoming a better rider, riding longer (time & distance) and to be able to stay with a group or not get dropped on every hill or to fall off the back of the paceline on flat to rolling terrain. I also hope to lose some weight in the process.

I have Friel’s book, but it seems that it is really geared more towards the racer, which I have no interest in becoming. I’ve been riding with someone who is in their second yr of riding. During our rides, we can pretty much hang together until the hills. Mind you, I need to lose 30 pounds, but this guy has 30 pounds on me (heavier by 30) and he can get up the hills and keep on going. Me on the other hand, I can get up them, but recovery takes forever. I’ve been using a HRM the past 3 weeks and have found that when I get past 160, and really anywhere in the 160’s range, I know that I can’t continue at that pace or intensity very much longer. If I do, then it just wears me out and I will fall off the back and then have to work my a$$ off to bridge the gap. Then because I’ve worked so hard to catch back up, it just becomes a vicious cycle that just wears me down till I can no longer keep up.

Yesterday, we were cruising along in a 3 person paceline at around 22-25mph, and our average at the first rest stop was 17.2mph! This is a lot more than I’ve ever done and after the rest stop, I just couldn’t keep up with the 2 others in my group. They would get a couple of hundred feet in front of me and then slow so I could catch up. I got stuck on the end of the line and just got left behind. I’ve been riding 3x during the week, doing a long ride of 2-3hr on Saturday and a recovery ride on Sunday. I’ve tried to keep my HR between 60-75% on the weekday rides but on the weekend long ride, I’m getting my HR into the 80% range.

What advice or training suggestions can anyone offer to help me be able to keep up on rides and not get dropped off the back? Is it time for intervals? If so, how do I do them? Since I didn’t really have a “plan” while on my way to 1000 miles, should I continue in such a way as to build a better endurance base? I’m just so befuddled right now as to how to improve. If it helps, in all of my rides so far, my avg HR has been around 145, and so far the max HR I’ve seen has been 183, which was yesterday. I’m female, RHR of 60, and 41yo. I’ve been using 182-60=122 and taking my HR% from 122 and then adding 60. (so 70%=(122*.70)+60=145). Is this a correct way to calculate HR%? Is there any other information needed?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and offer any suggestions. Karen.

bkennedype

Hello Karen...I'm no expert on this subject, but here what I've learned works for me. I calculate heart rate the same and try to train at 85-90% if I'm out for a ride. It does require concentration to keep intensity level up when you are training on your own, but you must try. For interval work I do these on different days...(1) 30 mins, 10 seconds out of he saddle and pedalling as hard as possible in as heavy a gear as possible. Rest 50 seconds, repeat. (2) 45 min, 30 seconds as hard as possible seated, 90 seconds recovery, repeat. Then I ride home, usually at a leisurely pace. The out-of-saddle workout seems to be helping my climbing a bit. I try to do Interval work on Monday and Thursday so that I get a day recovery before my club rides on Wed and Sat. A day of rest (no riding or really low intensity - HR in 60-70% range) riding seems to help a lot.

You may also want to incorporate longer intervals of say 2-3 minutes at say 90%...something that's uncomfortable and requires concentration to maintain. If you want to ride faster you have to trainer at a higher intensity level. It's that simple.

Keep adjusting your zones as your max observed HR go up. I was using 176 as a max but recently I hit 180, 181 and then 184 yesterday. So I'm adjusting my zones accordingly. Sounds like you are on track to measure your intensity. 220 - age is within +(-) 15 beats of your max, or so I was told by an exercise physiologist yesterday. Women might be slightly different re 220 as a starting point.

Legs and lungs getting stronger and I'm no longer getting dropped as easily. There are a lot of good posts about sprints and intervals on this site. Pick something that's easy to follow and then go out and do it. It works better than just going for a ride and putting in the miles. Seems like you are ready for sprints and intervals.

I'm 5 - 9 and 195lbs. The biggest thing that will help you is when you start to shed a few lbs. The 165 lb guys always have more in the tank for the hills that I do. But I don't worry about that, I just ride and work on my own fitness level...and am quietly closing the gap! Cheers, Ben

Az B

It's all about power/weight.

To increase power, you need to do intervals, hill repeats, and tempo training. The weight will come off on it's own.

Even if you're not interested in racing, follow the racer's training program. It's the easiest way to get fast in the shortest period of time.

Az

kuan

IMO there are two numbers you need to know. Your lactic threshold and your maximum aerobic function or MAF. (Maffetone term)

Do intervals above LT and train below MAF for recovery.

You say you feel you can't keep the pace at above 160. Your 85% MHR from your numbers is 164 so that makes sense. You're at your limit, or almost.

According to Maffetone, your MAF is 180-age which puts you at 139, but it seems like you have a higher HR than that predicted by 220-age. I'd probably add 5 BPM to that, no scientific reason, so 144 or almost 70%. I'd stay below this for recovery. Kinda falls into place doesn't it?

Anyway, do your intervals. I wouldn't worry about a set amount of reps or time, just decide one day that you're gonna go do hard intervals and keep them under an hour total WORK time. In fact, for the first set of intervals, I recommend keeping the work under 15 minutes. Do them above LT, and use a ration of 2:1 work to rest. Start with one interval session every 10 days for a month, then once a week for a few weeks.

wolfpack 

this might be a repeat......

So, is it possible that my LTHR is close to 164? I do feel that when I’m in this range, I could go on longer, but I would really be suffering. I mean, I have been in the high 160’s and low 170’s, but it’s really hard. I haven’t done a field test yet to try and determine my avg HR for the last 20 min of a 30 min all out ride. I guess I could do that. I do know that my avg HR on most of my rides has been in/around 145.

I think for women, it’s 226-age, which would put MHR=185. I know I’ve seen 178, 183, 188, 195, and 197. I don’t think the HRM is wrong; I do think I have a higher heart rate. Or, could it be wrong?? I don’t think that a high HR means I’m less fit though. Anyway….I could get a LTHR test done for $85. Would this be better than trying to figure it out myself? I’m just getting so confused with all these numbers; Friel uses LTHR and others use MHR, so what do I use********************?? Damn, this is confusing.

Thanks for your help!

kuan

It doesn't matter. The %MHR zones are only estimates. What they try to estimate are point of maximum fat burning, LT, and red zone. The actual percentage doesn't matter, the target HR number is what's important.

Still, you're not going to ruin anything by going 2-3 beats above your aerobic zone. In fact, my intuition tells me that you'll actually gain a bit more if you get enough rest.

If you're really burning to know then spend the $85 for the test. I did.

WarrenG

So, train like a racer... but nobody has said how that's done. :-)

From a racer, you can try something like this (for your objectives). Training at an intensity around the level of intensity objectively measured as ~ 4mmol/l of blood lacate is the most efficient way of improving your general ability. Since you won't be doing a lab test you can estimate this level of intensity.

One way is to look at your average HR during a steady effort that is about as hard as you can go for 40-60 minutes. Nobody really wants to do that effort so try some intervals around your 160bpm (~80% of ACTUAL MHR) . 3 rep's for 6 minutes each with 4' rest between. Twice per week is fine for now. If you can't quite finish the third one around that HR then you probably need to set your target a bit lower next time. If that effort seems a bit too easy then try it a few beats higher next time. You'll learn about the pacing as you go. You should finish these intervals not exhausted, like you could do another half of one if you had to. You should be able to manage a one sentence conversation with the person next to you. So, not out of breath that you can't talk. This is key. If you try to do these too hard you'll plateau soon, just like you do if you listen to the spin class instrutors who think faster is better, and no pain/no gain.

Following week you add a minute or two to each interval. When you're up to doing 3 x 15' you'll be feeling much better. You can try some on a climb for even more effectiveness. If you are riding 5 days per week you can eventually do these 3 times per week. In a month or so you can come back and report on your progress, and then maybe you can introduce some other kinds of intervals that will help you and provide some variety. For now, there's no need for you to do intervals above your (4mmol/l) lactate threshold unless your weekly training time is limited to something below 5 hours.

ericgu

I'm going to voice a dissenting opinion...

You don't need more work at LT threshold or above, you need more work on basic aerobic fitness. Here's how I think of it:

The amount of effort that you can put out for an extended amount of time is your aerobic base. You develop the aerobic base by lots of riding below your lactate threshold - quite a bit in fact. Carmichael's approach sets 85% (83% if you're older) of your 3-mile field test average, which is pretty low. I think Friel's approach will end up with a similar range through a different approach.

Think of a chart that shows your HR over time. If you draw a line across at that "endurance" HR, that's the rate that you could keep up for a long time (limited on food and water, mostly).

On top of that, you can do short bursts of effort. Think of those as little spikes in the graph that run for short periods, corresponding to hills, pulls at the front of a paceline, catching up on a break, etc. The methods listed by others in this post are good at developing that short-term power, dealing better with lactic acid, and recovering quickly from such efforts.

But they don't help improve your aerobic base.

The other people you're riding with probably have both a higher aerobic base and a better ability to deal with the extra power demands. On the hills, most of their power is coming from that base, *and* they are able to recover better. You are dying on the hills, and that's why it takes so long to recover. (just a note - some of the people you ride with may be dying as much as you are, but they have some time to recover before you get to the top)

My advice?

First, don't get discouraged. It takes a long time to build an aerobic base - months/years.

Second, I think you should temper your workouts. Group rides can be really intense and it's easy to work harder than you should. Try to ride the hills so they don't absolutely kill you even if the group has to wait, and that should leave you more energy to hold onto the paceline. And don't do them too much.

You can't really determine heart rates based on formulas. You want to base your ranges on where your lactate threshold is, but that differs based on your fitness. Not to mention the fact that different people have different sized hearts. I think that Friel's book has a way to set training ranges, and I know that "The ultimate ride" does. Look at that, and figure out what your endurance/base heart rate range is, and try to spend about 95% of your riding in that range. That will not only give you the best aerobic benefit, it will give you the most weight loss benefit.

Having said all that, without a test, I'd guess that your overall average should be in the 120s, and you shouldn't spend much time above about 140 - not more than about 5% of the ride time.

Some more information here on the Carmichael field test. I've found it to be pretty useful.

https://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-171587.html

webist

Not so. Several have noted that she has Freil's book and recommended that she follow the race training methodology.

WarrenG

Long slow distance and "junk miles" are an old school appproach for those who either don't understand the physiological adaptions taking place at various levels of intensity, or they are racers who need to handle 4+ hour races, or other people who care most about very long rides. The main benefit of such long rides has more to do with adapting the body to sitting in the saddle for so long and less to do with improving performance at intensities one might need for rides/races of under 3-4 hours.

Friel wrote a book with some good stuff in it, but he has some serious catching up to do with regard to training physiological adaptions, and nutrition. Some of what he discusses is better understood by sports scientists, sports science-based coaches, and similar.

No, the LTHR willl remain within a few bpm for an individual throughout the season, assuming they are not starting as a complete couch potato.

I suggest you read the information here...

https://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

Note in particular the information in Table 2 regarding the adaptions that take place at various levels of intensity. The number of checks in each category represent the effectiveness of training for various aspects of fitness. If you want to ride easy you can do that, but it will take you far longer to accomplish what you can by riding closer to threshold. You can ride for 3 hours a week in level 3 and 4 to get the benefits of riding for 10+ hours in level 1 or 2, and for the most part you will also get some benefits not found in level 1 and 2. So, do you have 20+ hours a week to train, or more like 6-12 hours?

WarrenG

Do you think that's good advice for her? Any specific advice on what portion of Friel's training to incorporate? Doesn't Friel's race training include many efforts/intensities she should not include?

wolfpack 

wow! i really appreciate all the responses and suggestions everyone has given me. i really need to print out the stuff - it's easier for me to read that way.

given that i do have 1000miles and have been riding for 13weeks (this week), would getting a plan from here be something i could do? https://www.trainingpeaks.com/trainin...R50)8-13hrs/wk (road build-peakperiod/intermediate under 50).

i just don't really know how to use friel's book effectively and could really just benefit from someone else "telling" me what kind of workouts to incorporate to improve my riding.

i feel like i do have the long slow distances and the junk miles - initially i was just riding to see how far i could ride and to ride faster than the previous time, as well as to just get saddle time for the ms150. but now, i want to do more than the ms150, not exactly sure what though. i don't think i want to race, but i think eventually, i would like to be able to do solo rides at 17+/-mph or even B pace rides. i'm just so new into riding, that i don't have any real concrete goals as of yet.

warreng - i think that i will try your 3x6 intervals at around 160bpm and see how i feel. i've worked up to 8hr/wk riding and would like to get this up to 10-12hr/wk. i think i might spend the $85 just to see what it is - being an engineer, i like to have numbers to work with - guess this is why i'm so hung-up on the numbers.

again, thanks for everyone's help! karen.

kuan

I really think getting the LT/VO2max test would be money better spent.

IMO I really don't think it's that difficult. Pick a time/distance goal. Shorter distances mean you do shorter intervals at higher HR, longer distances mean you do longer intervals at lower HR. Throw in some hills, then get enough rest. Works for me.

WarrenG

If the test is for your 4mmol/l "lactate threshold" you can do the intervals I suggested in the range of 0-15bpm below the HR at 4mmol/l. You will essentially do longer intervals (more total work time) at the lower end of that range and less total work time as you get towards the top of that range.

For you, the numbers from the test will help you make sense of the training. Being told what to do with little understanding of why and how it all goes together is probably not your best approach.

Pat

Wolfpack,

It sounds as if you are doing pretty well.

Cycling is rather strange. Riding all the time at a nice comfortable cruise will help your endurance but it probably will not affect your top end cruising speed.

I also rather suspect that doing intervals (short intense bursts) will help your max speed some but it might have a limited utility. I believe that to get good at an aspect of riding, you need to rather mimic it out in training - long hard periods, short sprints, hill climbs, whatever. Try to do a variety of things. Of course, if you do intervals, you will probably end up doing longer hard stretches of riding anyway. Good luck.

Also, I would respectfully suggest that you intentionally avoid focusing too much on performance. Working on improving is well work and is often painful to boot. Your bike can easily become an instrument of pain and who wants to do that? I have seen quite a few people train hard then drop out of the sport. It is important to have fun and enjoy yourself every so often and the heck with performance.