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Criatine for pre ride and Endurox for post?

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Criatine for pre ride and Endurox for post?

Old 05-12-08, 10:50 PM
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Criatine for pre ride and Endurox for post?

This year I want to train with health and wellness in mind. Anyone have any experience with a Creatine drink mix for pre riding? I also want to take Endurox after a ride. Since I am starting fresh from winter I wont have anything to base my training on (or notice a difference in strength gain or endurance). Anyone have experience with Creatine? Endurox? What specifically was good that you noticed?

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Old 05-13-08, 12:19 AM
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No experience with Endurox, but have heard good things.

Have used Creatine Monohydrate off and on for a while. There are a couple of things that I've found that may or may not apply to others.

1) Creatine does not directly boost strength. What it does is extend the time that your peak power is available. This can be a double edged sword. You're still burning muscle glycogen to do the work, so if you're extending your training time at peak effort, recovery fuel (and rest time) become super important. It might be wise to also add L-Glutamine to your list of supplements when you start taking Creatine. The Glutamine will help to speed recovery.

2) Depending on what type of Creatine you use (monohydrate is the most common), you can bloat a bit during the loading phase. I haven't experienced this, but I know some folks that have. If you do experience this (your cheeks kind of start looking puffy), an alternate approach is to just start the maintenance phase right off. The drawback to that is that it takes about 30 days to get to a saturation point this way, as opposed to 5 days of loading to accomplish the same thing.

Whether or not to start using Creatine really depends on what you're after, and what kind of training program you're using. In training for a specific event, I used Creatine to be able to extend my speed workouts during the specialization phase. It worked well, but I ended up a victim of overtraining at one point. So be careful to ensure you take care of recovery. You need to balance the percieved extra power and endurance with a little extra caution.

Also, there's an amount of weight gain that accompanies Creatine use, due to the amount of extra fluid contained in the muscle fibers. I went off the Creatine about 3 weeks prior to my goal event to shed the excess weight. It worked out pretty well, but only took about half of that time to shed the weight.

As with anything in this sport, YMMV.

Steve
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Old 05-13-08, 06:29 AM
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Nice summary, barlows. One thing I'd add, and this is especially important during the summer- you can easily dehydrate when taking creatine, so be sure to keep your fluid intake higher than usual. That doesn't mean just on the road, either. Also, YMMV, for sure. Don't be upset if you don't respond- some people don't, at least at a 5g/day dose. I know some who've consistently taken 10g/day and still don't respond. On the other hand, I respond very well to 3g/day, but that may be because I'm a vegetarian (those who don't eat meat don't get a lot of creatine in their diet).
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Old 05-13-08, 12:17 PM
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I wouldn't do the creatine before. Mix it into the Endurox. 5g. More is counter-productive IMHO. I think you'll notice a difference. I ride with a woman who swears by steak, potatoes, and red wine for recovery. I bet that works, too.
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Old 05-13-08, 11:02 PM
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From my sports nutrition class I learned that creatine is as said only used for extremely short durations of anaerobic exercise, when its the main muscle fuel. That said, you should be able to get enough creatine to use up what you expend in a balanced diet, meat included diet. The people that most benefit from creatine would be female vegetarian weightlifters.
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Old 05-14-08, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sneekyjesus View Post
The people that most benefit from creatine would be female vegetarian weightlifters.
The people who most benefit from creatine are the people who make creatine.

... Brad
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Old 05-14-08, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by greyghost_6 View Post
This year I want to train with health and wellness in mind. Anyone have any experience with a Creatine drink mix for pre riding? I also want to take Endurox after a ride. Since I am starting fresh from winter I wont have anything to base my training on (or notice a difference in strength gain or endurance). Anyone have experience with Creatine? Endurox? What specifically was good that you noticed?
I started using accelerade as a hydration drink a few years ago. It worked pretty well, but when I went out on long rides on weekend mornings (3-4 hours), I'd get home, eat a little lunch, and then sit on the couch and eat and nap the rest of the afternoon. I had the feeling that I was hungry but couldn't really figure out what my body wanted.

Since I switched to Endurox, I don't get that feeling any more. I'm not hungry the same way, and I have much more energy in the afternoon.
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Old 05-14-08, 11:46 PM
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You'll probably get a bigger performance increase from the mental belief that creatine is giving you longer bursts of energy than from the product itself, so you are countering the performance increase by reading all these negative posts.
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Old 05-15-08, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ericgu View Post
I started using accelerade as a hydration drink a few years ago. It worked pretty well, but when I went out on long rides on weekend mornings (3-4 hours), I'd get home, eat a little lunch, and then sit on the couch and eat and nap the rest of the afternoon. I had the feeling that I was hungry but couldn't really figure out what my body wanted.

Since I switched to Endurox, I don't get that feeling any more. I'm not hungry the same way, and I have much more energy in the afternoon.
I know exactly how you feel...
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Old 05-15-08, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bac View Post
The people who most benefit from creatine are the people who make creatine.

... Brad
I think your statement is mostly true about creatine loading. There is no reason to "load" creatine. It only gets you to consume more of the product. Go to bodybuilding.com and read the thousands of posts about creatine. In the science section they cite many studies that show that creatine does not need to be loaded.

I personally take creatine pre workout and post workout. There is no need for anything more. Get micronized creatine monohydrate for $20 for a big tub. The stuff is dirt cheap if you don't get the expensive branded stuff or the alternative forms.

As for creatine's effects it definitely will help you sprint and recover. Creatine will help you sustain the duration of your sprints. Taking creatine post workout will help get the protein and carbs back into the muscles.

As is noted about the people who would benefit the most are vegatarians. If you eat red meat or fish you already get a decent amount of creatine but nowhere near as much as taking a suppliment. Dont expect anything huge unless you have a reason to believe you are deficient in creatine (you aren't).

Even if its not a huge gain its worth it for the fact that it is one of the cheapest supplements you can get.
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Old 05-15-08, 01:57 PM
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For an even more unbiased view of creatine, and how to use it, check this fact page from the Australian Institute of Sport. They don't manufacture creatine (as far as I know). http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrit...heets/creatine

Personally, I wouldn't bother with supplements (beyond decent carb drinks, gels, and a protein recovery drink) until you make Cat3 or better. Until then, there are other way more important habits to learn (like how to train, how to recover, how to corner, etc etc).

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Old 05-16-08, 07:52 PM
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it is shown that creatine has no beneficial effects when takin before a long distance/endurance type workout, its made to work best actually for continued muscle strength IE weight lifting, it can also work for short workouts that are more cardio based. When taking it make sure to up your liquid intake because creatine dehydrates the muscles a bit, and when muscles are dehydrated they are very prone to injury. so make sure you up the liquids when taking creatine, before, during and after the workout.
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Old 06-04-08, 02:41 PM
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I use buffered creatine during my winter weightlifting. It doesn't require preloading like the monohydrate does, and it doesn't break down into creatinise.

I don't use it during my main cycling season for a number of reasons. It works by allowing your muscle fibers to store more water, which bulks them up, and allows them to work harder for short intensity exercises like weightlifting. I felt stronger but slower after this year's weight training, and it took a while to get my spin back after adding 1" to my thighs over the winter. It will certainly decrease your watts per kilo ratio, as you'll be adding weight.
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Old 06-04-08, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ericgu View Post
I started using accelerade as a hydration drink a few years ago. It worked pretty well, but when I went out on long rides on weekend mornings (3-4 hours), I'd get home, eat a little lunch, and then sit on the couch and eat and nap the rest of the afternoon. I had the feeling that I was hungry but couldn't really figure out what my body wanted.

Since I switched to Endurox, I don't get that feeling any more. I'm not hungry the same way, and I have much more energy in the afternoon.
I use Accelerade during my rides, 2Hrs+, and have a serving of Endurox when I get home.
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Old 06-05-08, 07:39 AM
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+1 on Endurox, great stuff
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Old 06-05-08, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by greyghost_6 View Post
This year I want to train with health and wellness in mind.
If health and wellness are your focus, and not racing, then id skip the creatine and endurox. You dont need chemical supplements prior to a ride to gain health benefits from a ride. In fact, pretty much everything you add in your body has side effects, which may be counter to your goal of health and wellness.

For post ride, a recovery drink helps aid recovery. Chocolate milk works as well as any expensive and gross tasting post workout recovery marketing goldmine drink. I prefer to use a mocha espresso as my recovery drink of choice

I have all kinds of pre/mid/and post ride supplements but use them in relation to what my focus of the ride is, and not just by habit.
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Old 06-09-08, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by yak View Post
I use buffered creatine during my winter weightlifting. It doesn't require preloading like the monohydrate does, and it doesn't break down into creatinise.

I don't use it during my main cycling season for a number of reasons. It works by allowing your muscle fibers to store more water, which bulks them up, and allows them to work harder for short intensity exercises like weightlifting. I felt stronger but slower after this year's weight training, and it took a while to get my spin back after adding 1" to my thighs over the winter. It will certainly decrease your watts per kilo ratio, as you'll be adding weight.
Unfortunately "buffered" creatine is another myth perpetrated by the supplement companies onto well meaning athletes. Most of the adds for buffered creatine seem to state that the creatine molecule has been fused with magnesium and therefore a "new" creatine molecule has been created. This is not that case even though it is what the ads suggest. There are different forms of creatine but buffered creatine is not one of them.

Buffered creatine is simply magnesium chelated creatine monohydrate. There is a tiny thread of truth to what the adds say. If you are severely deficient in magnesium you will be better off taking "buffered" creatine. Megnesium deficiency isn't very common and as an endurance athlete i am sure you must be aware of the electrolytes you are taking in including magnesium.

I am aware of only a single study that has tested buffered creatine vs. regular creatine. The results for both groups were the same. There was an increase in muscular strength over the placebo group. The gains in both creatine groups were the same. Read the study yourself if you like.

Selsby, JT., RA DiSilvestro, and S.T. Devor (2004). Mg2+-creatine chelate and a low-dose creatine supplementation regimen improve exercise performance. J. Strength Cond. Res, 18,2, 311-315

Second of course is that creatine monohydrate does not need to be loaded. This is another myth put out in order to convince users to consume more of their product. The usual dose of creatine is plenty in order to get the full effect. There is a great amount of evidence that loading does nothing even though it is not harmful.

Personally i take creatine monohydrate (micronized for easy mixing) after workouts and sometimes before. I dont take it before every ride. I take it before criteriums and when i am doing interval training. Thats it. Creatine is cheap if you get the standard stuff so its not a big deal if you take more but buying expotic creatines can really get expensive. If you are paying more than $20 for a huge tub of creatine you are getting ripped off.
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Old 06-09-08, 06:03 PM
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COMPLETELY useless for cycling. The only people that would benefit from creatine are powerlifters, because the TINY increase in performance only lasts for 2-5 seconds of MAXIMUM effort.

Creatine is used in the body ONLY in the begining of muscular contraction, after you use up your ATP, meaning when you use white muscle fibers. and those exhaust after about 5 reps or 5-10 seconds. Cycling goes for far longer than 5-10 seconds.

Carbo-load with a different types of carbohydrates (meaning they hydrate you), I myself preffer peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. try them with wheat bread. oh watch out for "wheat enriched" wich is not the same thing.

Good luck.
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Old 06-09-08, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by EatMyA** View Post
COMPLETELY useless for cycling. The only people that would benefit from creatine are powerlifters, because the TINY increase in performance only lasts for 2-5 seconds of MAXIMUM effort.

Creatine is used in the body ONLY in the begining of muscular contraction, after you use up your ATP, meaning when you use white muscle fibers. and those exhaust after about 5 reps or 5-10 seconds. Cycling goes for far longer than 5-10 seconds.

Carbo-load with a different types of carbohydrates (meaning they hydrate you), I myself preffer peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. try them with wheat bread. oh watch out for "wheat enriched" wich is not the same thing.

Good luck.
I wouldn;t say it is completely useless but it does do very little. I think you missed out on the 2 biggest benefits to creatine for cyclists. As you said creatine only matters for short bursts which is true. Shorts bursts do however happen in cycling. They obviously happen in a sprint but that is not the most important time.

The main benefit i see with creatine is the decrease in recovery time between maximal efforts. This applies to crit racing more than sprinting at the end of a road race. In a standard crit race you will put otu several maximal efforts as well as sub-maximal efforts that partially drain your ATP stores. Sudden surges in groups such as coming out of corners come to mind. You often need to put out a 1-2 second near maximal effort to catch the guy in front of you. With a technical course you can see how recovering fully from a hard effort is key. Creatine will help you recover after those efforts faster. Your sprint will be a little bit faster on creatine and anything helps with that. For that reason i would say if you don't plan on climbing go ahead and take creatine.

The second benefit you get with creatine is post ride. Taking creatine with your recover shake that includes sufficient high GI carbs and protein will expedite the nutrients into the muscles. It WILL help you recover after exercise especially if you were doing hard efforts at some point.

If you dont take creatine you are not missing out on much though. The difference is not huge but it is a real gain. A $20 tub of creatine should last a cyclist a year or two of use all the time.
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Old 06-09-08, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarery View Post
If health and wellness are your focus, and not racing, then id skip the creatine and endurox. You dont need chemical supplements prior to a ride to gain health benefits from a ride. In fact, pretty much everything you add in your body has side effects, which may be counter to your goal of health and wellness.

For post ride, a recovery drink helps aid recovery. Chocolate milk works as well as any expensive and gross tasting post workout recovery marketing goldmine drink. I prefer to use a mocha espresso as my recovery drink of choice

I have all kinds of pre/mid/and post ride supplements but use them in relation to what my focus of the ride is, and not just by habit.
Endorox chocolate tastes pretty good.

Chocolate milk is good if a) you tolerate lactose well and b) you find one that isn't sweetened with fructose.
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Old 06-09-08, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ericgu View Post
Endorox chocolate tastes pretty good.

Chocolate milk is good if a) you tolerate lactose well and b) you find one that isn't sweetened with fructose.
The point was you dont need overpriced items marketed as recovery drinks when simply eating a regular diet will have you recovered for the next day anyways. if your lactose intolerant and cant drink milk, endurox and the like are not your only choice left.
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Old 06-10-08, 09:12 AM
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Seems to me that all Endorox is, is L Glutamine ! http://www.accelsport.com/product-in...ange-info.html

I like Gaspari Nutritions Super Pump 250, http://www.supplements101.com/SuperP...perpump250.htm it has about 1g of Creatine per serving, an energy blend (caffine, ginsing etc), with a huge amount of Magnesium for latic acid! I find it gives great energy pre ride, and explosive energy for sprinting... all while getting you very vascular and pumped! just my .02$

I tried it last week pre ride, rode about 40miles @ 18mph avg., my legs were PUMPED, and I saw veins in my quads ive never seen b4.

by the way great forum! Nice to be here.

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Old 06-10-08, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarery View Post
The point was you dont need overpriced items marketed as recovery drinks when simply eating a regular diet will have you recovered for the next day anyways. if your lactose intolerant and cant drink milk, endurox and the like are not your only choice left.
That is what the research says, but my experience - and the experience of several other people I know - is that recovery drinks are more effective than regular diet. For me, it make a huge difference both in how tired I am and how hungry I am the rest of the day.

YMMV
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Old 06-10-08, 10:39 PM
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NICE post Packeteer.

1. I'll use it getting close to a peaking cycle it will allow me to fight the weight for about 1-2 seconds longer (which could make the difference in making the lift or not)

2. on short bursts

yes there are shorts bursts of energy in cycling but the thing is that you will fatigue the white muscle fibers wether you sprint or not. the body just uses them up right away, the key to make them grow is to use them maximally at the beginning. so yes THE FIRST BURST provided its done in the FIRST 5-10 SECONDS of the race will be enhanced by the use of creatine, by allowing you to push for 1-2 seconds more longer. So unless you are racing for a distance of 100ft, creatine is of little use

3. on post exercise recuperative properties

My first response would be PLACEBO EFFECT. But creatine does hydrate the muscle cell, while cycling dehydrates the body. so YOU MIGHT HAVE A POINT. But...carbohydrates do that MUCH BETTER. I think you would have much more success with a drink that combines SODIUM, GLUCOSE, AND WATER. for sodium I prefer bakingsoda, for glucose I prefer fruits, and for water.....well, water. heck even fruit with salt and lemon with a glass of water will do very good for recuperation from a long ride. plus the glucose will give you an INSULIN SPIKE wich is desirable ONLY after exercise.

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Old 06-10-08, 10:50 PM
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here an individual already did most of the research compilation http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../creatine.html

ON CREATINE FOR CYCLING.

"Three additional studies suggest that creatine supplementation may not be beneficial for running velocity, sprint swimming performance, or a maximal cycling effort [7]. Short bouts of repeated anaerobic activity have shown some potential benefits with creatine supplementation use in a laboratory setting. However, creatine supplementation has not been shown to enhance single-event performance such as stationary cycling [16-19]. Taken together, these studies do not support creatine supplementation to enhance aerobic activities such as distance running."

But now we have to argue the parameters of the study. who was chosen for the study group and testing procedures so I guess this means squat.



SHORT STORY: Just stick to glucose from different types of carbs for cycling. Again I like the PB&J sandwich.

Last edited by EatMyA**; 06-10-08 at 10:56 PM.
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