Contest: Essence of the BL arguments
05-23-07, 11:33 AM
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Contest: Essence of the BL arguments
This thread is a contest!
Let's see who can state the essence of the pro-Bike Lane and anti-BL positions most succinctly.
As the OP, I'll be the judge, so I won't enter the contest (you've had enough of my opinions anyway). But if you feel someone's entry is particularly good, post in support of it, and the judge will take your words of support under consideration. Because of my bias, I will probably defer to someone like Gene or the Ratliffs to recognize the best pro-BL entry.
There are three potential winners:
Grand Prize: Recognition and adulation from forum members!
Entry deadline: midnight, one week from today: Wednesday, May 30, 2007
Good luck!
Let's see who can state the essence of the pro-Bike Lane and anti-BL positions most succinctly.
As the OP, I'll be the judge, so I won't enter the contest (you've had enough of my opinions anyway). But if you feel someone's entry is particularly good, post in support of it, and the judge will take your words of support under consideration. Because of my bias, I will probably defer to someone like Gene or the Ratliffs to recognize the best pro-BL entry.
There are three potential winners:
- The entry which explains why vehicular cycling advocates are opposed to most if not all bike lanes on urban and suburban surface streets accurately and more succinctly than any other entry.
- The entry which explains why bike lane advocates support at least well-designed if not as many as possible bike lanes on urban and suburban surface streets accurately and more succinctly than any other entry.
- The entry which explains both positions accurately and more succinctly than any other entry.
Grand Prize: Recognition and adulation from forum members!
Entry deadline: midnight, one week from today: Wednesday, May 30, 2007
Good luck!
05-23-07, 11:52 AM
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I know that you recused yourself, but I'd like to nominate your post.
I think this gem best explains the HH reasoning behind opposing bike lanes:
I think this gem best explains the HH reasoning behind opposing bike lanes:
I'll be the judge
05-23-07, 12:06 PM
#3
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Pro Bike Lane: Bike lane stripes and stencils make it clear to everyone that there is room for motorists to pass bicyclists on the left without delay.
Anti Bike Lane: For safety and efficiency, cyclists must often operate farther from the roadway edge, and often where motorists cannot pass on the left, with or without delay. This contra-indicates bike-specific positioning markings on most ordinary roads since these traffic control devices would need to be ignored so frequently as to be useless or harmful.
Anti Bike Lane: For safety and efficiency, cyclists must often operate farther from the roadway edge, and often where motorists cannot pass on the left, with or without delay. This contra-indicates bike-specific positioning markings on most ordinary roads since these traffic control devices would need to be ignored so frequently as to be useless or harmful.
Last edited by sggoodri; 05-23-07 at 12:20 PM.
05-23-07, 12:10 PM
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Pro Bike Lane: Bike lanes make it clear to everyone that there is room for motorists to pass bicyclists on the left without delay.
Anti Bike Lane: For safety and efficiency, cyclists must often operate farther from the roadway edge, and often where motorists cannot pass on the left, with or without delay, which contra-indicates bike-specific pavement markings on most ordinary roads.
Anti Bike Lane: For safety and efficiency, cyclists must often operate farther from the roadway edge, and often where motorists cannot pass on the left, with or without delay, which contra-indicates bike-specific pavement markings on most ordinary roads.
ProBikeLane:Bikelanesmakeitcleartoeveryonethatthereisroomformotoriststopassbicyclistsontheleftwithou tdelay.AntiBikeLane:Forsafetyandefficiency,cyclistsmustoftenoperatefartherfromtheroadwayedge,andofte nwheremotoristscannotpassontheleft,withorwithoutdelay,whichcontraindicatesbikespecificpavementmarkin gsonmostordinaryroads
05-23-07, 12:56 PM
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Can we slaughter the lamb in your honor anywhere or should we wait we wait for the shrine to the almighty intellect of BF to be finished?
05-23-07, 01:17 PM
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Being Judged by the guy who makes it up as he goes? No f'ing thankyou! But if I was judging, Pete (*edit* it appears Pete erased his post, so no, I'm not seeing things, it's just not there anymore, 
) and Zeytoun's first post seem to have hit it right on.
But what the heck (since I have no worries about winning and therefore being judged by old HH there)-
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
) and Zeytoun's first post seem to have hit it right on.But what the heck (since I have no worries about winning and therefore being judged by old HH there)-
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
Last edited by natelutkjohn; 05-24-07 at 06:14 AM.
05-23-07, 05:28 PM
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HH you are wasting valuable energy on the whole anti-bike lane situation. Why be opposed to something that hardly exists where you live? Just focus on the Vehicular Cycling principles and everything else should just fall into place for you.
Or maybe you don't really care about VC and are more concerned with your ego here on BF. I guess it's a lot easier to be against something than it is to be for something and try to get others to do it.
Or maybe you don't really care about VC and are more concerned with your ego here on BF. I guess it's a lot easier to be against something than it is to be for something and try to get others to do it.
05-23-07, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Being Judged by the guy who makes it up as he goes? No f'ing thankyou! But if I was judging, Pete and Zeytoun's first post seem to have hit it right on.
But what the heck (since I have no worries about winning and therefore being judged by old HH there)-
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
But what the heck (since I have no worries about winning and therefore being judged by old HH there)-
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
05-23-07, 10:03 PM
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I'm going with natutlukjohn on this one too.
It's a contest and helemt head gets to be the judge? oh, brother. that dude hardly rides.
It's a contest and helemt head gets to be the judge? oh, brother. that dude hardly rides.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-29-07 at 10:01 PM.
05-23-07, 10:04 PM
#10
----
Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
I vote for that one.
ooops! wait a minute what was I thinking. I don't get a vote!
Yikes! and what am I doing in the A&S forum
and OMG! I'm posting in response to this ridiculous thread!
05-24-07, 08:19 AM
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Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
05-24-07, 09:27 AM
#13
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Pro-bikelane: Bike lanes remove the cyclist from the normal flow of traffic and thus minimize the dangers of on-road cycling.
Anti-bikelane: Bike lanes attempt to remove the cyclist from the normal flow of traffic and in doing so create more hazards than previously existed by forcing two seperate flows of traffic onto a roadway only designed for one.
Anti-bikelane: Bike lanes attempt to remove the cyclist from the normal flow of traffic and in doing so create more hazards than previously existed by forcing two seperate flows of traffic onto a roadway only designed for one.
05-24-07, 09:29 AM
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My entry: Bike lanes - they ain't just for dinner any more.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-24-07, 09:35 AM
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who's ever said bike lanes remove bicyclists from roadway traffic flow?
05-24-07, 09:43 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
who's ever said bike lanes remove bicyclists from roadway traffic flow?
05-24-07, 09:52 AM
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i'd totally disagree with your assessment that bike lanes are designed to remove bikes from roadway traffic flow.
05-24-07, 09:59 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
i'd totally disagree with your assessment that bike lanes are designed to remove bikes from roadway traffic flow.
05-24-07, 10:34 AM
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Well since HH liked this so much... I am just going to post it here for the contest...
Originally Posted by genec
The reasons I understand are that BL are not strictly vehicular; putting cyclists in positions that are not destination positioned and or putting cyclists in a place on the road that is not in compliance with the rules of the road; such as to the right of slower moving traffic... therefore BL are not part of the whole vehicular stance... another reason is that BL set certain expectations in motorists minds about where cyclists are supposed to be... and last, that BL are discriminatory in that they create a special "class" of vehicle with it's own rules.
However the above reasoning while having some merit, tends to fall on deaf ears because bicycles do not fully fit into the traffic pattern of faster moving traffic... Unlike the often given examples of cement trucks and tractors; bicycles are human power vehicles that have different "behaviour" patterns from powered vehicles (and yes I am speaking of cyclists verses vehicles... comparing humans to machines vice comparing the rights of cyclists to the rights of motorists). HPV have different speed and load patterns, and for the most part are a very narrow vehicle that can also easily merge with and operate with walking pedestrians in nearly any environment that peds also access (stairs being the limit).
So while the rights of the operators of each vehicle may be equal, the charateristics are not... and these charateristic differences should not be "equalized" by laws but should embraced and flaunted. We expect cars to go faster... we expect bicycles to "sneak" between cars at stops, we expect bikes to go slow up hills... we expect bikes to be able to access sidewalks. There are expectations based on realities that simply do not fit into a strictly vehicular picture.
In some cases cycling may mean being strictly vehicular... in others it may mean sidewalks and paths offer access to locations that autos cannot access. In some cases the road may be so designed that cyclists are at a severe disadvantage due to speed... do we then force all operators of other vehicles to acquiesce to the limitations of HPV, or do we simply provide different facilities? Where is the line we are willing to draw?
Where the vehicular only stance falls short is that being strictly vehicular misses embracing some of the unique charateristics of a bicycle... and attempts to force HPV to fit into the powered vehicle world.
Bike lanes are an attempt to capitalize on some of the charateristics of bikes while granting acceptable access to the roads... in an attempt to maintain the aforementioned rights of all users of the road. The result has been some perceived diminished rights to the road, but these diminished rights are not based on the designs of BL, but on the misconceptions of the powered vehicle operators and an overwhelming desire to give the majority vehicles on the road (with different operating charateristics) a majority of the road surface.
BL are not perfect... but then neither is strict vehicular cycling... the reality is that utilizing all the charateristics of a bike, an operator is likely to be in many different modes... and using BL are just part of the larger picture.
However the above reasoning while having some merit, tends to fall on deaf ears because bicycles do not fully fit into the traffic pattern of faster moving traffic... Unlike the often given examples of cement trucks and tractors; bicycles are human power vehicles that have different "behaviour" patterns from powered vehicles (and yes I am speaking of cyclists verses vehicles... comparing humans to machines vice comparing the rights of cyclists to the rights of motorists). HPV have different speed and load patterns, and for the most part are a very narrow vehicle that can also easily merge with and operate with walking pedestrians in nearly any environment that peds also access (stairs being the limit).
So while the rights of the operators of each vehicle may be equal, the charateristics are not... and these charateristic differences should not be "equalized" by laws but should embraced and flaunted. We expect cars to go faster... we expect bicycles to "sneak" between cars at stops, we expect bikes to go slow up hills... we expect bikes to be able to access sidewalks. There are expectations based on realities that simply do not fit into a strictly vehicular picture.
In some cases cycling may mean being strictly vehicular... in others it may mean sidewalks and paths offer access to locations that autos cannot access. In some cases the road may be so designed that cyclists are at a severe disadvantage due to speed... do we then force all operators of other vehicles to acquiesce to the limitations of HPV, or do we simply provide different facilities? Where is the line we are willing to draw?
Where the vehicular only stance falls short is that being strictly vehicular misses embracing some of the unique charateristics of a bicycle... and attempts to force HPV to fit into the powered vehicle world.
Bike lanes are an attempt to capitalize on some of the charateristics of bikes while granting acceptable access to the roads... in an attempt to maintain the aforementioned rights of all users of the road. The result has been some perceived diminished rights to the road, but these diminished rights are not based on the designs of BL, but on the misconceptions of the powered vehicle operators and an overwhelming desire to give the majority vehicles on the road (with different operating charateristics) a majority of the road surface.
BL are not perfect... but then neither is strict vehicular cycling... the reality is that utilizing all the charateristics of a bike, an operator is likely to be in many different modes... and using BL are just part of the larger picture.
05-24-07, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
It's not my assessment. It's my statement of the pro-bike lane stance. Feel free to disagree but good luck finding a majority of pro-bike laners who agree with you.
05-24-07, 11:32 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
i'd totally disagree with your assessment that bike lanes are designed to remove bikes from roadway traffic flow.
Originally Posted by Bekologist
Why hasn't VC caught on, Diane? Because riders, as a group, don't want to ride in high speed traffic. cities with better planning for bicycling via infrastructure have more cyclists on the roads.
05-24-07, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
I'm confused. You once wrote the following about vehicular cycling:
If bike lanes are not perceived to remove cyclists from the flow of traffic, which you say they don't want to ride in, then what makes the striped design better than the unstriped wide outside lanes of equal passing space that vehicular cyclists promote?
If bike lanes are not perceived to remove cyclists from the flow of traffic, which you say they don't want to ride in, then what makes the striped design better than the unstriped wide outside lanes of equal passing space that vehicular cyclists promote?
I think most bike lane supporters believe integration is not possible (whether they realize they believe this or not; whether they characterize their belief in these words or not) and they like bike lanes because they feel the stripe clarifies the segregation.
05-24-07, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I think most bike lane supporters believe integration is not possible (whether they realize they believe this or not; whether they characterize their belief in these words or not) ...
HH has learned well the technique from his guru of divining the unstated intentions/motivations of those who don't share his passions. This is too silly for further comment.
05-24-07, 12:09 PM
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Bike lane haters: Paint make people ride incompetently
Bike lane supporters: Incompetence makes people ride incompetently
Bike lane supporters: Incompetence makes people ride incompetently
05-24-07, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
Bike lane haters: Paint make people ride incompetently
Bike lane supporters: Incompetence makes people ride incompetently
Bike lane supporters: Incompetence makes people ride incompetently
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey